Deteriorated Powder.

[bearhunter]

I've had some powder that was perfect after more than 30 or 40 years of storage. And some that was probably around 10 years old that deteriorated. All powder that I've had go bad were bought "used' from someone, not new retail stocks. So who knows how it was stored. I've thrown out some Ammomart #44, IMR4198, VVN140, and Hercules Bullseye. So no manufacturer seems particularly risky, they can all go bad.

That #44 powder from Higginson's was sold from three different batches.

Tom knew that two of the batches, the first two that came in about a month apart, had a possible shelf life of ten years or more before it would break down. The third and final batch was good for an undetermined period, exceeding 20 years.

That's why he sold it for $4 per pound.

He sent me 14 pounds of the first two batches and 14 pounds of the third batch, along with a few thousand 6.5x55, primed Berdan cases and a few thousand 6.5 bullets, ranging from 95 grains to 160 grains, that he wanted loads worked up for, specifically Agb42B rifles.

It was a fun project and the rifles were running under a hundred dollars at the time, at Lever Arms, with spare magazines and all accessories, including parts kits.

Tom even reimbursed me for the rifle/kit.


The first two batches started to break down almost ten years to the day of import. Some of it lasted a bit longer.

As for the third batch, I still have some of it left and it's just slightly faster than 3031.

My advice to folks that know how to evaluate powders by their burn rate and are willing experiment with surplus powders, is to use it up ASAP.

There is a good reason why those powders are made available for surplus.

I don't know if it's still a common practice but there was a time when it was profitable to dissassmble large lots of ammunition that had been sold off as surplus, if the primers were the known source of failure to fire, etc.

I believe the first two lots of #44 powder came from lots of ammunition, 6.5x55 and 8x63 that had been determined not acceptable for use in the Swedish/Norwegian/Finn militaries. I know some of it came from such sources, according to Tom.

I still have about 10 pounds of a flake powder that came from SFRC (banner sponsor)

It was taken from Spanish Cetme ammunition, whoes primers had gone bad. I also purchased all of the pulled bullets, which weigh in at 112 grains and measure .311. Great components and cheap, but if you don't know what you're doing, stay away from surplus components.

That being said, it's a good way to become proficient at ''safely" utilizing components that may be an "only" option when the pickings get lean, such as the period starting a couple of years ago and the next 2-5 years coming.

 

[smokinbarrel]

Do powders age better in the newer black plastic containers? Nothing to rust, as opposed to the old tin cans.
Out of curiosity I have dug into some of my older opened cans and notice some spots of rust inside, oddly the 60+ yr old stuff is fine, it's the 30 yr old that is deteriorating. It's always been upstairs in a dry house.
I have transferred some into empty plastic bottles I had, pouring it from one to the other in a bit of a breeze so it would blow away rust dust...not sure if this is going to help preserve it any. I have loaded with powder from slightly rusty cans that seemed to still perform fine. Hate tossing it nowadays.

 

[bearhunter]

Do powders age better in the newer black plastic containers? Nothing to rust, as opposed to the old tin cans.
Out of curiosity I have dug into some of my older opened cans and notice some spots of rust inside, oddly the 60+ yr old stuff is fine, it's the 30 yr old that is deteriorating. It's always been upstairs in a dry house.
I have transferred some into empty plastic bottles I had, pouring it from one to the other in a bit of a breeze so it would blow away rust dust...not sure if this is going to help preserve it any. I have loaded with powder from slightly rusty cans that seemed to still perform fine. Hate tossing it nowadays.

When powders start to deteriorate, they give off acidic fumes. The containers they're in have little to do with it, unless they're stored in a damp environment.

When I was purchasing 50 and 100 pound drums of powder from Hodgdon in the US, some of the surplus powders he had on hand dated back to WWI manufacturers, especially the powder for Cannons. Most of this powder was stored, three containers to a crate. The containers were mostly tar lined pressboard, covered in heavy white paper and sealed.

Some of the older stuff was in large wooden barrels.

Their biggest concern, wasn't deterioration, which was expected, as much as SPARKS.

There were large, compressed pellets, appx 12 inches in diameter and 3 inches thick, that looked like wagon wheel rims with spokes.

These "pellets" were for large 14 inch guns, or so I was told at the time.

Each pellet was wrapped with heavy wax paper and they were stacked 10 feet high, in wooden frames. I have no idea what they did with those or what happened to them.

I was told the only reason they had them, was because they were part of the auction lot they purchased and they had to guarantee to take away everything they bought. To my knowledge they weren't for sale to commercial customers.

Strange because at the time, it was possible to buy huge 16 inch, surplus cannon rounds, that were ready to be loaded and had HE projectiles. Shooting clubs used to purchase them for whatever reason. I saw a couple that had been deactivated and were being used for driveway edging, complete with weatherproof lights.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

I had some old Ammomart powder go bad. I wonder if the cardboard container played a part. It was their later containers, had no plastic bag inside.

The general 'rule' from the powder guys is never to change containers for fear of mis-labelling confusion, however, if I had it now, I'd be putting it in an empty Hogdon's plastic container and removing the Hogdon's label. Mark it with a paint marker.

I have a few powders from the late 50's that are still fine. They came from a good friend that died a few years ago. Mostly that's shotgun powder, and I don't use a lot of it.
I did work up some cast bullet loads for it though, so I'll get through it eventually.

 

[gyppo]

That's interesting, I've never heard of this happening.

The good news in all of this is you were able to use most of those 21 pounds before it went bad!

 

[bearhunter]

I had some old Ammomart powder go bad. I wonder if the cardboard container played a part. It was their later containers, had no plastic bag inside.

The general 'rule' from the powder guys is never to change containers for fear of mis-labelling confusion, however, if I had it now, I'd be putting it in an empty Hogdon's plastic container and removing the Hogdon's label. Mark it with a paint marker.

I have a few powders from the late 50's that are still fine. They came from a good friend that died a few years ago. Mostly that's shotgun powder, and I don't use a lot of it.
I did work up some cast bullet loads for it though, so I'll get through it eventually.

Many of the powders available from the time period you describe were made of cardboard.

IMHO, it's a chemical issue, not cardboard or plastic bags.

My common practice with powder is to mix all of the lots of the same powder designation together into one large, consistent lot.

Many folks cringe when they hear this. It's perfectly safe and a common practice.

No, I don't blend powders from different manufacturers or different designations. Ganderite has enough knowledge on how to get away with such things, because he gets powders in huge lots and knows the proportions that can allow for safe blending.

When Tom sent me the three different lots of #44 powder, he knew of my blending practice and cautioned me not to mix the first two lots with the third lot. He knew that the first two lots would deteriorate in ten or so years, when he bought it and that's why it was so cheap.

He knew that most reloaders would use up that powder, long before it broke down.

Most shooters buying from Tom back in those days, made ''group'' buys, often through their shooting clubs. It was a cheap way to reload with mostly good quality powders.

The #44 powder was military surplus powder.

There was another excellent Ball powder offered a few years later, H414SL10, which was about 5% slower than H414 or W760, which are basicly the same powder and interchangeable.

I've still got some of that H414SL10, which was one of the first "non temperature sensetive" powders to be used and this lot came from an over run for a commercial ammunition manufacturer at the time.

Sadly, Tom died of Cancer appx a year or so after this powder was made available to Canadian reloaders.

Higginson's was just about the only reliable source for surplus powders and likely still is in Canada.

There are several outlets in the US that distribute surplus powders.

Many people are under the impression that ''surplus'' powders are all military grade, not so, most of what I have seen available has been from commercial loading businesses who ordered more than their anticipated need or than they had room to store safely.

Surplus powders should not be confused with ''Commerial Canister Grade" powders. They are custom ordered for the specific needs of the commercial loader and are often faster/slower than their Canister Grade counterparts, that are held to much tighter parameters described in loading manuals.

 

[Lastgun]

Blending different lots of powder into a uniform lot is a great idea...Thing is blending is not as easy as it sounds.

As a young fella I worked in my fathers seed cleaning plant which involved a great deal of blending different lots of same variety seed to make grade...When some lots of seed are not up to spec other clean lots of seed that are well within grade specs are blended with lesser lots to make a greater quantity of seed that makes grade and can be shipped...The key to the process was blending all the lots together into a homogenous blend...The hard part is getting the whole lot homogenous.

Not going into too much detail...4 special designed hopper bottom bins simultaneously fed into a leg that lifted the seed back up to a distributer that returned it into the 4 blending bins... for many hours this blending went on to get a homogenous blend...Samples were taken and analyzed by our certified analyst to make sure the whole lot was homogenous and would make grade when tested by the feds.

My point...It was not an easy fast process to get an accurate blend...The good news is a powder of designated burn rate is going to be very, very close when it comes to the advertised burn rate and I would bet there is a lot of blending go on at the powder factory to get this consistency...So basically when you are blending different lots of powder together they are so close to the same that your blending technique at home is not really an issue.

 

[bearhunter]

Seeds and Cannister Grade powders are about as similar as Apples and Grapes.

Cannister grade powders are made to much tighter tolerances than most other grades of powders and the results are a large lot of extremely consistent performing powder when lots of the same designations of powder are mixed.

Surplus powders or non cannister grade powders are a completely different ball game.

When Higginson's was selling off lots of non cannister grade surplus powders, some of which was nothing more than factory over runs of a particular powder that was ordered by a commercial loading company, such as Remington or Winchester, etc.

The H414SloLot10, is relatively temperature insensetive, in comparison to W760 or H414, which are basicly identical powders.

The H414SL10 has a much more consistent burn rate than either of the other two, which aren't at all bad.

Likely I could have gotten away with blending the surplus, non cannister grade, powder with the cannister grade counterparts, normally available to hand loaders.

After doing some velocity tests with the H414SL10, I ended up mixing two different lots of this powder, with excellent results.

The thing is, unless you're willing to do some due diligence with different loads of non cannister grade powders, you could easily end up with negative issues.

You could get away with blending H4831 and IMR4831 and end up with a powder lot that would be just slightly faster than H4831.

How much faster would depend on the ratio of the mix.

I have a tub, appx 20 pounds of H4831 mixed with HP48, a non cannister grade Higginson offering that is very close to the burn rate of H4831, H4831ssc and #4831 powder that was manufactured during WWII.

The WWII powder is quite a bit faster than recent manufacture 4831 types, and I've been blending it with part cans of powders that I've picked up from different yard sales, estate sales, etc, "WHEN" I know the sellor or knew him and trusted that the lable on the can described accurately what was in the can.

The WWII lot of non cannister grade powder is almost identical to the burn rate of HP48 and IMR4831.

The blended lot I have on hand is one of the most consistent lots of this type of powder I have on hand and I use it for 7x57, 30-06, 338-06 and 8x57.

In a couple of those cartridges, it give the best accuracy as well as velocity.

In the 8x57, it's way to slow, but accuracy, with heavy bullets is phenomenal at short ranges, 150 yards and under, with heavy bullets.

Accuracy and velocities are surprisingly good in the 338-06 with 225grn FBSP Hornady bullets.

 

[Lastgun]

Seed and powder are very similar when it comes to blending...It's the form of material that make them similar...As in liquids are very easy to blend...Seeds/powder ie. kernels/grains are not so easily blended.

You may think you are getting a consistent blend with your home basement blending technique but with out strict sample technique and lab analysis of the final blend it is next to impossible to tell.

From what you have wrote I understand your testing technique...What is your blending technique ?

 

[bearhunter]

Seed and powder are very similar when it comes to blending...It's the form of material that make them similar...As in liquids are very easy to blend...Seeds/powder ie. kernels/grains are not so easily blended.

You may think you are getting a consistent blend with your home basement blending technique but with out strict sample technique and lab analysis of the final blend it is next to impossible to tell.

From what you have wrote I understand your testing technique...What is your blending technique ?

The results on target and the readings from my magnetospeed are what I need to see and if the results there are consistent, without pressure signs????????????

As for blending technique, I don't stray outside of the boundaries and blend non cannister grade powder with cannister grade powders of the same designation as a norm. The 4831 types are one of a few exceptions

As for blending lots of cannister grade powders, I just throw what I have on hand into the blend and keep it going as I accumulate more odd lots of the same designation. Consistency is close enough that the blends have always performed on POI or Velocity without any noticeable or practical deviation.

 

[Eagleye]

I have used the identical method of "blending" powder lots that bearhunter uses, with
very similar results. I have never run into an issue with these blended powders.

The H414SL10 BH mentions is one of the best spherical powders I have ever used,
with a burn rate close to the 4350's, it is also quite versatile.

Common sense must prevail, of course, but even after several decades of reloading,
I use caution, and think matters out carefully. Dave.

 

[Silverback]

This is an interesting thread, especially since I just opened up a box of Ammomart 44 powder. I just ran out of IMR 3031 and was looking to see if I had more but I didn't, but I did find the #44 powder in a bag in a box.

After reading some threads about it I was worried about it possibly having deteriorated but it looks great and still has that wonderful new powder smell.

I loaded five 45-70 rounds with my normal load (well below maximum) of IMR 3031 and five with the same load by weight of Ammomart 44, my chronograph revealed that the Ammomart 44 was 9% faster than the IMR 3031.

Eagleye and Ganderite are right about the bark and muzzleflash, a friend watching me shoot the loads said the 44 loads had a fireball about three times bigger and it really barked.

 

[ted_dent]

This is an interesting thread, especially since I just opened up a box of Ammomart 44 powder. I just ran out of IMR 3031 and was looking to see if I had more but I didn't, but I did find the #44 powder in a bag in a box.

After reading some threads about it I was worried about it possibly having deteriorated but it looks great and still has that wonderful new powder smell.

In 40 years of reloading the only powder I ever had go bad was a small cardboard cannister of #44. It almost completely eroded the metal lid. It was from a guy who I know didn't store it very well so that may have been a contributing factor but after reading this thread it looks like the powder itself was the issue.

 

[trapoholic]

I'm currently sitting in about 50 pounds of powder (hoarder) they're all in their sealed factory canisters. I have no climate control in my reloading room sometimes it's hotter than a witches *** other times it's 10 degrees, no signs of any degradation yet.

 

[Silverback]

In 40 years of reloading the only powder I ever had go bad was a small cardboard cannister of #44. It almost completely eroded the metal lid. It was from a guy who I know didn't store it very well so that may have been a contributing factor but after reading this thread it looks like the powder itself was the issue.

I purchased the 44 powder in a bulk order with a friend right from Ammomart or Higginson whatever it was called at that time and it has been in a cool dry place since I got it, which may have helped with its current condition. I remember going to Ammomart with my father in the late 70's to buy bullets and powder.

 

[3macs1]

I'm currently sitting in about 50 pounds of powder (hoarder) they're all in their sealed factory canisters. I have no climate control in my reloading room sometimes it's hotter than a witches *** other times it's 10 degrees, no signs of any degradation yet.

My powder has seen plus 30 to minus 30 every year since the mid 60's ( not stocked in the home ) and 1000's of pounds over the years and no climate control but no light either. All in factory containers never any in boxes or plastic bags since we never bought bulk , surplus or military stock ( even when dad had the gun shop ) and NEVER had even one pound gone bad in 57 years
IMO buy bulk or surplus and in paper boxes or bags you best store it perfectly or expect problems
To each their own
Cheers

 

[Alex McKr]

Silverback: This may be of interest:

Load data supplied with Ammomart N44 powder (Nobel manufactured) recommended reducing charges by 6%, from comparable IMR 3031 loads. As you've already noted, it's a bit more energetic. I've used lots of it in a variety of calibers, including .45-70. The muzzle flash and sharp report takes a bit of getting used to. But overall, a good performing powder, in my opinion.

 

[kjohn]

I scored a good batch of 44 in the little blue Ammomart tins. I use it in several cartridges. Luckily, it was kept in a good place. Works okay on .303, 8x57, etc.

 

[Alex McKr]

N44 is one of my favourite powders for light bullets in the 6,5 X 55. Great performer on woodchucks, using 85 grain, Sierra hollow points.

 

[bearhunter]

#44 powder came into Higginson's in several different lots.

Each of the containers had the lot # on it as well as some information.

#44 lots were mostly appx 5% faster than IMR3031, so for those that have it, without the reloading tables supplied by Ammomart at the time, work up your loads.

I still have some of that #44 powder as well and use it for 303 British loads.

It's fine but I always keep it in metal tins, because when it turns, it turns fast and rusts any metal around it, as well as giving off a very pungent acidic smell.

It's a very good powder but it's also very temperature sensetive.