DG with a single shot

hoytcanon said:
Oh, I will most definitely buy that they won't "drop" to a lung shot.... and that obviously comes with it's own set of problems... but you would have some selling to do to convince me that, they won't "die" from a lung shot...

As for recovering... let's assume the animal does recover... which means the wound was not inspected, there are a host of things that could create a non-fatal "lung-shot-looking" wound... bullet failure, bullet clipping brush before impact, bullet angle cause deflection and sub-cutaneously changing direction etc... etc... if a properly sized (say .375"+) bullet of sufficient weight (say 300 gr+), perforates both lungs squarely, you could "gob smack" me if that animal survives the wound, from ermine to elephant... I say this, having no experience with buffalo and having the utmost respect for the experience of both Ardent and Dogleg...
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Ganyana actually recovered the healed lung shot animal on a future hunt if memory serves, I'm really stretching here and someone will remember the article better or post a quote, but they get to know the animals like neighbours especially the big bulls. Anyhow the lung shot Buffalo was killed much later and on gutting they found healed lungs, it was a solid I would suspect as many pack for Buffalo and these would not be condusive to impressive lung hits. I'd bet the propensity for using solids has a lot to do with lackluster lung shot performance once the size and makeup of the lungs is considered. I myself have followed up a far smaller, but still extrodinarly tough creature twice on lungs hits and that was Wildebeest. An old, very short PH told me last year over that when he was young, "I was tall like you. Then I shot a Wildebeest in the lungs (as I had), and I walked and walked... and look at me now!"
 
I don't want to side track, but I should clarify what I mean by "lung shot." I can see and understand the protracted death sequence that might result from a solid projectile through the periphery of the lungs, or perhaps through the tip of a lobe but over the heart... when I say "lung shot" I mean centering a shot through both lungs on a broadside animal. Where I am struggling to conceive of any animal surviving such a wound, is that deflated lungs mean no air, no air means no muscle function, including heart and imminent death. If a solid projectile does not do devastating damage to the lungs when centered from a broadside position, maybe that is not the best choice for that type of shot... I will defer to the experienced folk on how to get the job done... I have never hunted buffalo or African game, so I lack credibility on their ability to absorb damage... but of the couple hundred plus head of NA big game I have shot, and the 250+ bears I have tracked and dressed for clients, I have never witnessed an animal take a square centered lung shot and survive for even 20 minutes... and mostly their time on earth is better measured in seconds...

Interesting discussion...
 
hoytcanon said:
I don't want to side track, but I should clarify what I mean by "lung shot." I can see and understand the protracted death sequence that might result from a solid projectile through the periphery of the lungs, or perhaps through the tip of a lobe but over the heart... when I say "lung shot" I mean centering a shot through both lungs on a broadside animal. Where I am struggling to conceive of any animal surviving such a wound, is that deflated lungs mean no air, no air means no muscle function, including heart and imminent death. If a solid projectile does not do devastating damage to the lungs when centered from a broadside position, maybe that is not the best choice for that type of shot... I will defer to the experienced folk on how to get the job done... I have never hunted buffalo or African game, so I lack credibility on their ability to absorb damage... but of the couple hundred plus head of NA big game I have shot, and the 250+ bears I have tracked and dressed for clients, I have never witnessed an animal take a square centered lung shot and survive for even 20 minutes... and mostly their time on earth is better measured in seconds...

Interesting discussion...
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lung shots in them are nothing elephant is another animal that could take days to expire after a lung shot during the ivory hunting days shot to those types of shot were more common on elephant and form what I read they were tracked along time. there's a area on a elephant about the size of your wrist that if hit and the shot penetrates far enough will hit the first lung hit then aorta and hit the second lung id guess he same should could be done on cape buffalo. from what I understand though it would be best to try to anchor the animal with a shoulder breaking shot then follow up
 
hoytcanon said:
I don't want to side track, but I should clarify what I mean by "lung shot." I can see and understand the protracted death sequence that might result from a solid projectile through the periphery of the lungs, or perhaps through the tip of a lobe but over the heart... when I say "lung shot" I mean centering a shot through both lungs on a broadside animal. Where I am struggling to conceive of any animal surviving such a wound, is that deflated lungs mean no air, no air means no muscle function, including heart and imminent death. If a solid projectile does not do devastating damage to the lungs when centered from a broadside position, maybe that is not the best choice for that type of shot... I will defer to the experienced folk on how to get the job done... I have never hunted buffalo or African game, so I lack credibility on their ability to absorb damage... but of the couple hundred plus head of NA big game I have shot, and the 250+ bears I have tracked and dressed for clients, I have never witnessed an animal take a square centered lung shot and survive for even 20 minutes... and mostly their time on earth is better measured in seconds...

Interesting discussion...
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It's a strange consideration and it perplexed me too, all there is to it however is a more powerful diaphragm by far than the ungulates, far thicker and larger lungs with two lobes a piece, and they can begin clotting and resealing before the numerous mechanisms of lung failure take hold (air from outside removing diagphragm vaccum, air from the lungs themselves doing the same, blood filling the lungs, etc). Essentially the lungs keeping trying to seal upnand retain enough function that you'll find them drowned in blood before the lungs collapsed, at least what I've seen in two wildebeest that act like little buffalo. I've yet to lung shoot a big bovid and hope to avoid to.
 
The trouble is, most of us are deer hunters. There's different sorts deer but they all wired the same.We take lung shots with rifles that are huge compared to their body weight, destroy its lungs which shuts off its air and it dies after in the time it takes to walk over to it.

Buffalo are different. Shoot him through the lungs and he will eventually feel like coughing. Thick skinned as they are there will usually only be an entrance hole and that is self sealing. He's still getting all kinds of air, and you can just about forget about his lungs collapsing. A lung shot on a Buffalo or elephant is just an invitation for it to bleed to death, and if you don't take out some big blood vessels out that is an iffy thing. It will probably work, but don't count on it working right away.
 
Duly noted... I don't expect to need the info, but interesting none the less.

Having said this, is there a "best" projectile if a broadside lung shot were to be attempted?
 
Uh oh... deep and dark path lies ahead. ;) Bullet choice...

Something that actually expands, likely has lead in it, I did this to a wildebeest I've alluded a couple times to with a Hornady Interloc 270gr, he went a bloody long ways through the bush but he certainly stopped breathing at the end of the very long walk. TSXs and solids of course would be near the bottom, however I'd simply write off the lung shot as a first shot and try to break bone and / or catch the heart. Lung shot just isn't a viable option for me on wild bovids, as while I do enjoy walking, I prefer to do it for leisure rather than following something a terribly long ways into the scrub I paid a tidy sum to hunt. :)
 
hoytcanon said:
Duly noted... I don't expect to need the info, but interesting none the less.

Having said this, is there a "best" projectile if a broadside lung shot were to be attempted?
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I haven't found anything better than an A-frame. I've used them, TSXs, CEB Safari Raptors, Partitions, and Hornady DGXs. The Hornadys suck. For solids I've used Barnes banded solids in flat nose and the newer round nose plus the Woodleigh Hydros. They suck too, but not on the magnitude of vacuum volume of the Hornadys.
If you get a broadside shot, drill it through both shoulders. Midway up for a high heart plumbing, a bit lower for the heart shot and a bit higher for the spine. The first two will get the good part of the lungs.
 
Ardent said:
Uh oh... deep and dark path lies ahead. ;) Bullet choice...

Something that actually expands, likely has lead in it, I did this to a wildebeest I've alluded a couple times to with a Hornady Interloc 270gr, he went a bloody long ways through the bush but he certainly stopped breathing at the end of the very long walk. TSXs and solids of course would be near the bottom, however I'd simply write off the lung shot as a first shot and try to break bone and / or catch the heart. Lung shot just isn't a viable o
ption for me on wild bovids, as while I do enjoy walking, I prefer to do it for leisure rather than following something a terribly long ways into the scrub I paid a tidy sum to hunt. :)
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Wildebeast can be tough. My first got a lung hit with a 270 grain .375 TSX and ran about a quarter mile or more. It's hard to tell exactly in thick bush. It was shedding chunks of lung never mind blood. Shot was far from perfect, centering one lung and the back of the other.

The second was quartering toward and I pegged it perfectly with a 400 grain TSX out of a 416 Rigby. It went straight down and got straight back up again. It quickly bedded maybe 50 yards away and there holding his head up when I got up to it. It put another through both shoulders and damned if it didn't get up again. That didn't last long. Neither bullet exited. They don't call them poor mans Buffalo for nothing.
 
Dogleg said:
The trouble is, most of us are deer hunters. There's different sorts deer but they all wired the same.We take lung shots with rifles that are huge compared to their body weight, destroy its lungs which shuts off its air and it dies after in the time it takes to walk over to it.

Buffalo are different. Shoot him through the lungs and he will eventually feel like coughing. Thick skinned as they are there will usually only be an entrance hole and that is self sealing. He's still getting all kinds of air, and you can just about forget about his lungs collapsing. A lung shot on a Buffalo or elephant is just an invitation for it to bleed to death, and if you don't take out some big blood vessels out that is an iffy thing. It will probably work, but don't count on it working right away.
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i wish one day you can write down a study with all the buffalos you have shot in australia. im really waiting for it.

Phil
 
hoytcanon said:
I don't want to side track, but I should clarify what I mean by "lung shot." I can see and understand the protracted death sequence that might result from a solid projectile through the periphery of the lungs, or perhaps through the tip of a lobe but over the heart... when I say "lung shot" I mean centering a shot through both lungs on a broadside animal. Where I am struggling to conceive of any animal surviving such a wound, is that deflated lungs mean no air, no air means no muscle function, including heart and imminent death. If a solid projectile does not do devastating damage to the lungs when centered from a broadside position, maybe that is not the best choice for that type of shot... I will defer to the experienced folk on how to get the job done... I have never hunted buffalo or African game, so I lack credibility on their ability to absorb damage... but of the couple hundred plus head of NA big game I have shot, and the 250+ bears I have tracked and dressed for clients, I have never witnessed an animal take a square centered lung shot and survive for even 20 minutes... and mostly their time on earth is better measured in seconds...

Interesting discussion...
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i want to hear too about your +250 beart shot by your client and what suggestion you have on caliber and bullet for that specific hunt.

thanks a lot.

Phil
 
Dogleg said:
Wildebeast can be tough. My first got a lung hit with a 270 grain .375 TSX and ran about a quarter mile or more. It's hard to tell exactly in thick bush. It was shedding chunks of lung never mind blood. Shot was far from perfect, centering one lung and the back of the other.

The second was quartering toward and I pegged it perfectly with a 400 grain TSX out of a 416 Rigby. It went straight down and got straight back up again. It quickly bedded maybe 50 yards away and there holding his head up when I got up to it. It put another through both shoulders and damned if it didn't get up again. That didn't last long. Neither bullet exited. They don't call them poor mans Buffalo for nothing.
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Indeed, this is my brother and his 29" wildebeest, note the awkward forced smirk, he was rattled. He made a good frontal shot through thick bush on him with the .300 Weatherby, that would have ended anything he'd shot to date quite quickly. He swore up and down there was no way he messed it up, we wondered if he'd caught a branch, and then we found blood. An hour and more later we were still tracking, finally we saw him, very much on the move and he absorbed a barage from my .375. He finally dropped as the mag emptied to a Texas heart shot. Trouble with Africa is everything is tough, awkwardly so in some cases compared to North American game.

He doesn't normally hunt in a shirt like that but he was done hunting and just accompanying when the bull was spotted and he figured why not.

 
medvedqc said:
i want to hear too about your +250 beart shot by your client and what suggestion you have on caliber and bullet for that specific hunt.

thanks a lot.

Phil
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Phil... about 80% of the bears were taken over bait during the spring season, the rest were taken by spot n' stalk at food sources during the fall season and a half dozen or so, were called in... guns ranged from .243's with 100 Partitions by a handful of youth and lady hunters to .45/70's with 405 or 500 cast. Most were using .308 & .30/06 with 165/180 SP's or Parts... a few were taken with .30/30, .35 Rem, .44 Mags... on spring bait hunts, we never positioned stands more than 30 yards from baits and most were 15-25 yards as we had a good number of bowhunters... stands were always constructed and positioned with bowhunters in mind, so that they could be used by anyone... people say that black bears are not very tough and on a good hit I agree, they tend to go down quickly... unfortunately I have seen plenty of the other kind also... and I am positive that a poorly struck bear is as tenacious as a NA animal. We always counselled clients to wait for a broadside (near leg forward for bowhunters) or "slightly" quartering away shot and center the lungs.

The fall spot n' stalk hunts were mostly done in cuts and berry patches... blueberries, raspberries and choke cherries were our main focus... we also had some consistent success on spring sucker runs in a couple locations. During spot and stalk hunts the rifles tended to be chambered for flatter cartridges, 7 RM, .300 WM, .30/06, .280, a few .338 WM and .375 H&H... again we always suggested a broadside lung shot and "give him one and let him run" (assuming that it was a good one)... unlike the advice of Ardent and Dogleg on buffalo, standard cup & core bullets out of a 7mm or .30 cal are perfect for black bear, with their smaller stature and thinner hide and bones... preferring bullets on the "heavier-for-cartridge" side. Mostly grampa's "tried and true" deer rifle will be fine, if the hunter can use it with accuracy.

The long trailing jobs that we did, had nothing to do with the cartridge or projectile used, just the one squeezing the trigger, mostly nerves and bear-fever induced.... or occasionally just plain bad luck.

We were generally happiest to receive bowhunters... as they were well practiced, tended to not take questionable shots and were more satisfied with the overall experience (IME).

I had one old bird, Jim, that hunted with me for twelve straight years with a tired old .45/70 and his home cast wheelweight bullets... we spot n' stalked the fall berries and he took a nice bear every year... we kept in touch for years after he gave up hunting due to health... he passed on 15 or 20 years ago now... he is almost solely responsible for my extremely high esteem for the .45/70 cartridge... but Jim knew his rifle and what it could do... I'm rambling now... and off topic...
 
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Ardent said:
He doesn't normally hunt in a shirt like that but he was done hunting and just accompanying when the bull was spotted and he figured why not.

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Nothing wrong with that shirt... unless, you are hunting bovines on a Barcelona street...
 
Back to doctari for a minute he has also said he has absolutely no problem with a single shot for dg and stated in that same article that the absolute fastest that the Zimbabwe ph proficiency exam has ever been shot was with a ruger # 1. That must of been something to see!

I guess I've had better luck with lung shots than you guys- probably a dozen wildebeest, both blue and Nyassa for bait and the pot and they have all behaved just as anyone would expect. I like frontals or to shoot very tight behind the shoulder. I have had better luck with those shots than the "vital triangle". I have talked to three ph specifically about Kevin's book and all three( separate occasions) said that they think his broadside shot is a little far forward. These are all significantly experienced dg ph's not plains game specialists...


Maybe the difference for me is I'm generally using more than enough gun? All the wildebeest I can recall were either with a 375 or Lott. For eland sable zebra and hartebeest the normal 1/2 way up behind the shoulder shot has resulted in the normal 50 yard dash -stone dead critter. I'm also always using a a-frame or Tsx-my Dgx experience and opinion exactly matches doglegs
 
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Enjoying the discussion. This is bringing back some good memories, for sure.

As for bullet choice, I would use A-Frames (they produce a great wound channel) and, if necessary, Barnes Banded Solids (elephant, genets, monkeys, etc.).

On a previous safari, I had a chance to try the 300 grain A-Frame, 350 grain Barnes Triple Shocks (and Banded Solids) as well as the 380 grain .375" South African Rhinos (all in a 375 H&H).

Here is a picture of some of the recovered bullets:


A 380 grain .375" Rhino and Barnes Banded Solid recovered from a giraffe:


380 grain Rhino "before and after" (shot from a 375 H&H):



I've got a picture of a .375" Barnes Banded Solid next to a cross-section of Giraffe hide which is quite good for showing how darned thick their hide is(!) Will post it when I find it.

And...here it is:
 
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No doubt-I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is by far the best African thread I've seen on nutz. If we start onto the 45-70 ala Hoyt I will grant it official uber-thread status;)
 
Excellent, Angus.

Seeing that hide was eye-opening experience, for sure.

And an endorsement for the "use big bullets, leave big holes" approach to killing certain African game.
 
2" razor blade attached to a 400 grain arrow. lol Again my situation may have not been the standard scenario. But the 2" rage made a mess of the Buffalo. If you go back to my photo you will notice no wounds. Well that's because the other side was a mess so we turned him around. The Buffalo having a crazy thick hide and 2x4's for ribs, with very little space between ribs. So my 70lb bow did not pass thru. First time I have ever experienced this bow not pass thru a animal. Also first time I ever used a second arrow. So because the second arrow also didn't pass thru, the kinetic energy exhausted out of the first 2" wound. All sorts of heart and lung tissue actually erupted out of the original wound. Again this buffalo didn't even move. I think with a bow the cutting blade is so large it can make a ton of damage. With a gun no matter the caliber or bullet it all depends on when and how the bullet expands. It may dump too much energy on the hide and bone and not do much damage to the organs, or pass thru too deep having the energy dump late. And with lungs, if the lungs are collapsed even we would live for a minute or two. Never mind a wild animal.
 
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