di vs. piston

pbr streetgang said:
I would actually be interested in your unpleasant experience with Dlask Arms. I'm sure if it's an objective opinion (which may be hard for you) it's good to hear others perspectives. I'm assuming that if KAC sold a piston AR you would probably tell the OP that it's ok to to purchase piston AR's. I think the large group of people who are successfully using LWRC, POF, H&K ( to name a few) might take exception to your comment on staying away from piston AR's. I will happily put my MR223 up against anything KAC has to offer.
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OK... as much as I hate to flag wave on a guy's background, Kevin did serve with the CF on active deployments for a good many years and then later as a PMC where he used lots of other platforms in situations you never will.

KAC does not yet make many piston ARs because they primarily chase military contracts and until a piston gun meets the US ARMY criteria for adoption (at last count I don't believe a piston conversion has passed testing and proceeded to adoption for the M4), KAC won't be in the business of making them in quantity.

I'm of the same view that piston fans might want to wait until the US standardizes on a non-proprietary system before dumping huge money into one.

Now as for Dlask - how many Dlask AR's have you owned? I've had three of their lowers. The first was in 2004 timeframe (white lettering version). It was out of spec and I had to machine some of the spring recesses just to get an LPK to install. It was a POS.

Second lower was in 2006. It went together like Lego, but the finish machining on the front of the magwell was below par. A cosmetic issue only. It was in-spec and functioned 100%.

Third was in January 2011. All the pin holes, etc. were in spec except for the selector detent hole which I had to drill out 5 thou to install a milspec selector detent. The mag well accepted all magazines I tried but was not, in fact, machined to milspec. The relief cut for the mag catch boss on standard mags was machined with too much radius and therefore it would not accept 9mm conversion blocks. Not a problem for me as I'm a machinst and a quick fix on the mill had me back in business - nevertheless it was out of spec. Very pretty fit and finish though.

The long and short of it is that two of the three Dlask lowers I bought were so out of spec they needed corrective machining. Add to that the fact that they cost $250 plus tax and that many other in-spec lowers are $200 or less - even Canadian made ones and you quickly realize that they are not for everyone.

I presume if you buy a complete rifle from Dlask you'd be guaranteed a nice lower since they would need to install an LPK and would reject any lower that didn't go together properly.

I now only buy Dlask when I want custom engraved lowers since they do excel at that.

Just my $.02 worth.
 
first off thank you all fo taking such time and going into such dept for me.

secondly i ned to clarify one misunderstanding here... i unerstznd the mechanics of my rifle. i do. nonethe less if you had someone try to explin the mechaics of aril in german i wouldnt understand abloody thing!

my point is ive never heard these mechanical terms before. so if i cqlled a rifle a boomstick aand you calld it an AR that doesnt mean niter of us understand the mechanics, we just arent fammiliar with one anothers termonology. i konw my rifle but ihave no idea now what a piston rifle even looks like.
 
condisering all this ... i live in bc a am not opposed to building from ordering individual components and installing/building them myself. one thing i dont know anything at all about, other than what limited information i learn on here trough reading the opinions ofothers , is what manufacturers to look for, which to avoid and what is good value. i do not know this because ive never dealed in retail until now. there was a post i as reading where an indvidual listed all he parts he ordered to make an all american freefloating barrell system for a good price, about 1600 all in - which is pretty much my exact price point. as i stand now, this is the route im leaing towards. .. if anyone else can help me in guiding me through what i should buy to invest in quality for a great price, i would be very very appreciative.the thing is i want a quality weapon... im too cheap to buy twice so i want to do it right the first time. Thank you all again.
 
Kevin,

Is there a way to get BCM rifles/uppers into Canada? I checked out the BCM website before I pulled the trigger on the PWS MK112 and it quite clearly states that they only sell to US addresses. I had my eye on a Recce14 too.
 
Meh.

I never had problems with DI rifles, keep 'em wet and clean 'em once in awhile.

Hell, a fellow who is quite knowledgable has been running an experiment with a DI AR Carbine that is currently so dirty that it's grime has contaminated the space on either side of the rifle rack... Something like 39,000 rounds since it has had a serious cleaning and still counting.

So why am I getting a PWS MK112? I like the design, the demos are pretty good and I have asked the opinions of people who use the product.

I still would have liked that Recce14 though... ;)
 
BCM should be available thru import places like Questar I would guess.

On the Dlask, 5 of the 6 lowers I got - inc the CGN one needed work before quality FCS would fit and work properly, the anodize on two of them was TypeII Cosmetic - and the trigger/hammer holes started to oval in less than 1,000 rds.

As far as I know only
Colt
FN
LMT
Daniel Defense (Mk18 Mod1 Uppers)
KAC
Hk
Have USG contracts for 5.56mm guns.

Only FN and KAC have contracts for 7.62mm guns

Only FN and Hk have pistons in service, and only Hk's is a M16FOW base.


For the LWRCI fans, the DEA made it an authorized option, not a issued system.
 
HazeMK said:
condisering all this ... i live in bc a am not opposed to building from ordering individual components and installing/building them myself. one thing i dont know anything at all about, other than what limited information i learn on here trough reading the opinions ofothers , is what manufacturers to look for, which to avoid and what is good value. i do not know this because ive never dealed in retail until now. there was a post i as reading where an indvidual listed all he parts he ordered to make an all american freefloating barrell system for a good price, about 1600 all in - which is pretty much my exact price point. as i stand now, this is the route im leaing towards. .. if anyone else can help me in guiding me through what i should buy to invest in quality for a great price, i would be very very appreciative.the thing is i want a quality weapon... im too cheap to buy twice so i want to do it right the first time. Thank you all again.
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The first and most important question is "what do you want to use it for?"
Plinking at the range?
Service Rifle competition?
CQB competitions?
Fondling it in a basement and posting pictures on the internet?
Other?
 
KevinB said:
BM is generally a 2nd or 3rd Tier AR, due to the way they batch test parts and some of their materials.

I have had BM's -- some ran great, some where lemons.

Don't buy a piston AR -- just trust me on this... IF you want a piston gun, buy a G36, Sig55X series (but not a 552), an Ak, FN FAL, FN SCAR, or even a fricken M14

IF I was going to buy a AR I would buy one of the following.
In no particular Order
KAC (I get pretty good pricing ;) )
LMT
Bravo Co.
Colt
Noveske
Larue
Daniel Defense
Stag

I've got no experience with Cdn made AR's other than Dlask (which since my mother told me not to say unpleasant things I won't comment on that).
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I'm interested that you included Stag in that group...I have generally thought of Stag as the top end of the middle tier. I would be interested to hear any further information you'd like to give on Stag.
 
KevinB said:
As far as I know only
Colt
FN
LMT
Daniel Defense (Mk18 Mod1 Uppers)
KAC
Hk
Have USG contracts for 5.56mm guns.
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I think that depends upon how you define US Government.

Armalite, Bushmaster, and even DPMS supply lots of 5.56 guns to state and federal LEO agencies. The DPMS website client list reads like a who's who of the black pyjamas club. That being said, I doubt the government contract guns they make are the same as their entry-level AR's they sell to any joe on the street.
 
Gunnerlove said:
The first and most important question is "what do you want to use it for?"
Plinking at the range?
Service Rifle competition?
CQB competitions?
Fondling it in a basement and posting pictures on the internet?
Other?
Click to expand...

I have to agree. For service rifle you will want/need a non-free floated barrel, preferably in the 16-20" range. You will need iron sights, preferably NM sights.

For things like plinking, 3 gun and CQB comps, you'll probably want a 10.5 to 14.5" barrel (unless you take it to the US then you need a 16" barrel), probably go free float, optics, etc.

Mall ninja stuff is crap. No AR is worth anything unless it's used for shooting IMHO.
 
Claven2 said:
I think that depends upon how you define US Government.

Armalite, Bushmaster, and even DPMS supply lots of 5.56 guns to state and federal LEO agencies. The DPMS website client list reads like a who's who of the black pyjamas club. That being said, I doubt the government contract guns they make are the same as their entry-level AR's they sell to any joe on the street.
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True, and the FBI and DEA deal with RRA, if you can believe that...although again, I believe there is quite a difference between their contract guns and their commercial stuff.

Frankly I would guess that if you ordered 1000 rifles to spec from any big manufacturer you could get Colt-grade guns. The issue is really probably more one of consumer ignorance and price-point construction than the physical inability of Bushmaster etc to build high quality guns.
 
KevinB said:
On the Dlask, 5 of the 6 lowers I got - inc the CGN one needed work before quality FCS would fit and work properly, the anodize on two of them was TypeII Cosmetic - and the trigger/hammer holes started to oval in less than 1,000 rds.
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That sounds like the aluminum spec is questionable, since it appears to be too soft?
 
Claven2 said:
I think that depends upon how you define US Government.

Armalite, Bushmaster, and even DPMS supply lots of 5.56 guns to state and federal LEO agencies. The DPMS website client list reads like a who's who of the black pyjamas club. That being said, I doubt the government contract guns they make are the same as their entry-level AR's they sell to any joe on the street.
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Have you seen the piles and piles of bushmaster captured by the Russians from the Georgians? If procurement did not write the spec in, then you bet the bidder will not include cost adding spec to the final products.

Personally, I think a lot of LE agencies buy stuff based on price point and availability, and they do not write their spec as detailed as the spec demanded by US DOD. I doubt a police department will include the spec of the steel, testing procedures....all these engineering details in their RFP for a hundred or so rifles. Decisions could also be based on trade-in value, and unfortunately also how well the local dealers grease up with the procurement people/decision makers. In the US, there are millions of level of LE, from Federal, state, county, city to local sheriffs for a village. Just because one sheriff office of 10 buy DPMS, it really doesnot mean much.
 
Uhh they just shoot 'em, they haven't got a clue how they work.
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Well every soldier learns to shoot dissassemble and clean the C7 in basic training. If the C7 had a gas system piston like the FNC1 then they would learn to take it apart to clean it. I never came across a soldier, especially an infantry soldier who did not know his weapon inside and out.
 
Claven2 said:
I think that depends upon how you define US Government.

Armalite, Bushmaster, and even DPMS supply lots of 5.56 guns to state and federal LEO agencies. The DPMS website client list reads like a who's who of the black pyjamas club. That being said, I doubt the government contract guns they make are the same as their entry-level AR's they sell to any joe on the street.
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Look on FBO and see who's getting contracts.

You can say a lot of things, and often folks claim they are selling to an entity when they are actually selling to an individual, or a satelite entity buying with a Gov CC and no testing protocal.

Any .gov gun including FMS sales is supposed to pass first article testing against the TDP. Now for other Foreign sales (outside of FMS) no first article seems to be required. BM lost the M16A4 award when they could not make First article acceptance - so FN got to keep it.


Reall the only credible (in my experience) USG testing is done by, DOD, DOE, DOS, CIA, FBI Defensive Systems Unit, USSS.


GT 7075 alum is still pretty soft compared to the steel hammer/trigger pins, if it does not get Type III HCA, it will deform.
 
Hungry said:
If I don't get a piston driven AR... will my #### fall off? :p
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Priceless and you nailed it...Like the quad rail, the broomstick (vert grip) and every other gizzmo invented for the AR they all come and go in the high fashion world of AR's. People will buy what tickles their fancy at that moment at the drop of a hat,we are talking a service life of how many rounds ??? 50000 plus..I don't believe there is one of us amounst this group that has shot the usefulness out of an AR yet.
That being said,- the piston AR's I have shot H&K,POF and an ADAMs conversion all had a nice "feel" to them.The POF being the smoothest followed by the machined masterpiece of the H&K.

The only real advantage i'm seeing would be the cooler running BCG if you were shooting full auto and dumping 5x30rd. mags in a couple of min.(we live in Canada-NO fullauto or 30rd mags) As far as crud build up,non issue IMHO as you likely would not experience any FTF because of dirty BCG---maybe after 10000 rounds of crap ammo.

As far as compatibility between piston system parts,Never gonna happen--Ford dont make their parts compatible with Nissan or GMC. If piston systems get opted into service they will likely be all the same brand so compatibility not important. as the public you buy what ever brand you want and thats the parts you buy if needed.

Now that thats off my chest, I'd love to own a piston upper just cause I don't "have" one and I "want" one. Do I need one? No,but I still "want" one. Maybe this will be a fad that sticks,who knows only time will tell.
 
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