did 1905 ross have same problem as the m-10 ross?

I have Canadian ammunition from all dated years of the Ross period, right through to the end of the Great War. That includes Dominion Arsenal (the Government plant), the Lindsay Arsenal (1917-19 only) and Dominion Cartridge Company (DCCO on the head). I also have ammo from most of the British makers of the period, often in fair numbers.

Canadian ammunition was NOT made smaller than British ammunition. But it WAS made to the LOWER LIMIT OF TOLERANCE whenever possible, which seems to be most of the time. There is very little difference.

What seems to have happened is that the Rosses ran into some oversize ammunition, possibly British, from a maker which was new to the business, and this is what caused the problems. The tale (for which I would love some backup in the form of documentation) goes that the British were already having trouble with this ammo in the Vickers guns, so fobbed it off onto the "colonials" (our grandfathers and great-grandfathers) and used the DA ammo for the MGs.

No matter if the tale is true or not, there had to be oversize ammo involved somewhere along the line. A Ross used with ammunition meeting the established tolerances will give no more trouble than any other rifle, and a lot less than some.

As to the Mark II Ross, I have misassembled bolts on 2 of them, but the rifle WILL NOT function in this manner. The first tendency is for the bolt simply to refuse to go into the rifle. IF you manage to get the bolt into a well-worn rifle, it will not move backward and forward: it is as solid as a rock. Removing it so you can put it right can be quite the chore!

There WERE early Rosses with very tight bores. I notice that no-one seems to think this a problem in a Number 4 Rifle..... so why is it a life-threatening problem in a Ross..... which has a far stronger and stiffer action?

Ross used the established BRITISH dimensions for chambering reamers BUT (1) there was a definite tendency to ream the chambers to the minimum tolerance, and (2) owing to the tremendous strength of the Ross action, the Ross chambers did not enlarge as much as a Lee-Enfield chamber on Proof.

Bad ammunition was a problem all the way through the War. Witness the fact that Lee-Enfield chambers, already reamed fairly big, were reamed to a larger size after the middle of 1916. This was because of the ammunition problems.... but I note that nobody craps on the Lee because poor ammo was being issued for it.

I think that Tiriaq's evaluation likely is quite correct.
 
Smellie- that's quite the sickening thought, the Brits fobbed their defective ammo off on us, got our guys killed, and used the results to discredit our competition to their rifle factories. Then, they scooped off our high quality ammo for their guys. :mad:
Nice. It's great being a colonial wot?


I have Canadian ammunition from all dated years of the Ross period, right through to the end of the Great War. That includes Dominion Arsenal (the Government plant), the Lindsay Arsenal (1917-19 only) and Dominion Cartridge Company (DCCO on the head). I also have ammo from most of the British makers of the period, often in fair numbers.

Canadian ammunition was NOT made smaller than British ammunition. But it WAS made to the LOWER LIMIT OF TOLERANCE whenever possible, which seems to be most of the time. There is very little difference.

What seems to have happened is that the Rosses ran into some oversize ammunition, possibly British, from a maker which was new to the business, and this is what caused the problems. The tale (for which I would love some backup in the form of documentation) goes that the British were already having trouble with this ammo in the Vickers guns, so fobbed it off onto the "colonials" (our grandfathers and great-grandfathers) and used the DA ammo for the MGs.

No matter if the tale is true or not, there had to be oversize ammo involved somewhere along the line. A Ross used with ammunition meeting the established tolerances will give no more trouble than any other rifle, and a lot less than some.

As to the Mark II Ross, I have misassembled bolts on 2 of them, but the rifle WILL NOT function in this manner. The first tendency is for the bolt simply to refuse to go into the rifle. IF you manage to get the bolt into a well-worn rifle, it will not move backward and forward: it is as solid as a rock. Removing it so you can put it right can be quite the chore!

There WERE early Rosses with very tight bores. I notice that no-one seems to think this a problem in a Number 4 Rifle..... so why is it a life-threatening problem in a Ross..... which has a far stronger and stiffer action?

Ross used the established BRITISH dimensions for chambering reamers BUT (1) there was a definite tendency to ream the chambers to the minimum tolerance, and (2) owing to the tremendous strength of the Ross action, the Ross chambers did not enlarge as much as a Lee-Enfield chamber on Proof.

Bad ammunition was a problem all the way through the War. Witness the fact that Lee-Enfield chambers, already reamed fairly big, were reamed to a larger size after the middle of 1916. This was because of the ammunition problems.... but I note that nobody craps on the Lee because poor ammo was being issued for it.

I think that Tiriaq's evaluation likely is quite correct.
 
IIRC, in the RR Story, the contractor who produced the off-spec. ammuntion is identified, and the author was able to locate and test cartridges.
In McBride's book, he mentions Cdn machinegunners testing all rounds in the T slot of the spare breechblock of their Colt-Browning guns as they loaded the belts, discarding any cartridges which would not pass through.
I have, on occasion, found cases that will not fit the shellholder when reloading. There are manufacturing variations with us yet.
 
The experience of the RNWMP with the MkII Ross may speak to its reliability. The mounties did extensive patrols and this use may be the closest the MkII ever got to real field use. Most of the MkIIs on issue to the mounties seem to have been kept in store where they were destroyed in a fire. At the same time the obsolete M1876 Winchester which had been found wanting in the 1890s was still on issue and on patrol.
The MkII Ross had fragile ,complicated rear sights, a magazine that not only weakened the stock but was impossible to field strip for cleaning and a sliding safety that needed close fitting and operation so that it did not release the striker when it was disengaged.
A plus for the mkII was that had the most accessible locking lug recsesses for cleaning of any front locking bolt action.
 
RNWMP had MkI* carbine on issue but they were speedily withdrawn.
In 1909 1000 "Rifle Ross MkII with Sight Ross MkIII"s were supplied to the mounties where they were kept at Regina for use only in target practice and drill. In 1912 all but 34 were destroyed in a fire.
IIRC this arm has the longest designation of any Empire service rifle.
In 1913 the Ross Co sent a rep and trials rifles to Regina but they must have been unsatisfactory since none were ordered.
"Arms and Accoutrements of the MP'
 
But but but...that was before they were perfected!!! :confused::eek:


The experience of the RNWMP with the MkII Ross may speak to its reliability. The mounties did extensive patrols and this use may be the closest the MkII ever got to real field use. Most of the MkIIs on issue to the mounties seem to have been kept in store where they were destroyed in a fire. At the same time the obsolete M1876 Winchester which had been found wanting in the 1890s was still on issue and on patrol.
The MkII Ross had fragile ,complicated rear sights, a magazine that not only weakened the stock but was impossible to field strip for cleaning and a sliding safety that needed close fitting and operation so that it did not release the striker when it was disengaged.
A plus for the mkII was that had the most accessible locking lug recsesses for cleaning of any front locking bolt action.
 
Last edited:
The Cdn Corps was plugged into the British Army logistics pipeline in WW1, so it got a share of whatever the Brits had in the system-good or bad. There were a great deal of defective items produced under the the strain of watime needs or by those industries and individuals that cut corners to profit from war contracts. The quality of artillery ammunition was notoriously bad with many duds and defective fuzes. The Cdn Army at one time got boots from a cdn supplier with paper soles that disintegrated when wet. Pi$$- poor British rations were another plague which was re-incarnated for the next generation of troops in WW2.
 
There was graft, there was corruption, there was everything and anything you could imagine.

But we must remember that there had NEVER been a war on such a scale. NOBODY was really ready for what happened. The miracle is that anybody got through it alive.

"When I was on the Somme, in 1916, we didn't think that ANY of us would ever get out of there alive." Pte. Charlie McKenzie, CMMG Corps, told to the present writer.

Artillery ammunition: the British Parliament, prior to the Great War and subsequent upon the Civil War, had a fixed policy... for almost 200 years... of keeping the Army as broke as possible. When the War broke out in 1914 the Artillery, which had not had a decent budget for ammunition for several years, was discovered to have shot off a great deal of its War Reserve ammunition in training the few gunners they had. It was really that tight. Problem is that it takes 2 years to make an artillery round: castings must be seasoned before being machined. C.H. Douglas was one of the people called in to end the "Shell Crisis"; he then worked on ending the aviation crisis after Bloody April. My grandmother got a discharge from the Army and worked the next 2 years in an aircraft factory; I have a picture of her in her uniform.
Funny thing is that Douglas evolved from his wartime experiences a new theory of economics whicyh, it seems, nobody wants to hear about. It is the only scientifically-designed system of money and credits. I offered a pretty-much-complete set of Douglas's books to the Library at Brandon University (which already worships everything Mark ever wrote).... and they turned them down.

But nobody was ready for the Great War. It was the single most traumatic experience the human race has ever inflicted upon itself.

The Ross was a part of that.

And that's about all you can say about it.
 
Back
Top Bottom