Did a little experiment today. CFE223 + 308win + 168 AMAX's = Velocity *Update*

[CanuckWR]

So I recently picked up 4 lbs of CFE223 that I was going to feed to my AR after hearing the claims of being clean and easy to throw charges. Then being a curious sort I decided to see what else it might work in.

Hodgdon lists MAX load as 49.0gn for 2828fps with a SMK HPBT. This max trumps the speed of all other listed powders by a healthy margin so I decided some investigation was in order. This is nipping at the heels of a 30'06, which is very healthy.

I loaded up 7 loads of 5 rounds per interval, 0.3gn apart. I also had a standard load that I like to compare against.

All CFE223 loads were thrown by my Lyman 1200DPS 3 and verified by a balance beam scale.

Rifle is a Savage 12 with factory Accutrigger a 26" Shilen Select match (Thanks you Mystic ) Choate Custom tactical, Bedded. Leupold Mark 4 8.5-25x50mm, 20 MOA EGW Base and TPS Super Low Rings.

This was the best 5 shot group of the test. 48.4gn CFE223, CCI BR-2 primers, 168 gn Hornaday AMAX, and well prepped and sorted S&B brass (neck turned, weight sorted, neck sized for 0.002" tension). Seated just on the lands.

This was 100yrds.

I don't feel the verticle was due to the load, it was only 4C and I was starting to get cold at this point. I feel very strongly that with a bit of tweaking this will tighten up further.

So what was the speed?

Average 2980fps on the 48.4gn load, ES was rough at 45fps and 16fps SD. Measured by an Alpha Crony at 10'.

For reference I saw an average of 2780fps with the 44.5gn Varget load I usually shoot. Unfired Lapua Brass and CCI BR-2 primers.

Tomorrow will be some 300yrd testing. If it stops snowing for a minute!

 

[uchi]

nice group, i tried the same bullet in my 30-06 and had horrible luck, i think its too light for my gun.

the speeds look pretty good too, whats the book claim the speed should have been ?

 

[Skullboy]

So I recently picked up 4 lbs of CFE223 that I was going to feed to my AR after hearing the claims of being clean and easy to throw charges. Then being a curious sort I decided to see what else it might work in.

Hodgdon lists MAX load as 49.0gn for 2828fps with a SMK HPBT. This max trumps the speed of all other listed powders by a healthy margin so I decided some investigation was in order. This is nipping at the heels of a 30'06, which is very healthy.

I loaded up 7 loads of 5 rounds per interval, 0.3gn apart. I also had a standard load that I like to compare against.

All CFE223 loads were thrown by my Lyman 1200DPS 3 and verified by a balance beam scale.

Rifle is a Savage 12 with factory Accutrigger a 26" Shilen Select match (Thanks you Mystic ) Choate Custom tactical, Bedded. Leupold Mark 4 8.5-25x50mm, 20 MOA EGW Base and TPS Super Low Rings.

This was the best 5 shot group of the test. 48.4gn CFE223, CCI BR-2 primers, 168 gn Hornaday AMAX, and well prepped and sorted S&B brass (neck turned, weight sorted, neck sized for 0.002" tension). Seated just on the lands.

This was 100yrds.

I don't feel the verticle was due to the load, it was only 4C and I was starting to get cold at this point. I feel very strongly that with a bit of tweaking this will tighten up further.

So what was the speed?

Average 2980fps on the 48.4gn load, ES was rough at 45fps and 16fps SD. Measured by an Alpha Crony at 10'.

For reference I saw an average of 2780fps with the 44.5gn Varget load I usually shoot. Unfired Lapua Brass and CCI BR-2 primers.

That load looks very promising......

As a comparison I get 2780 fps with 44.5 grs of Varget using the moly coated 178 gr AMAX . Norma cases (flash hole deburred - FL Sized) with Federal 210M primers. Seated to an OAL of 2.800".

Barrel is a 26.5" Mcphee AMTU contour with 1 in 11.3" rifling.

Gives me a consistent .5 MOA out to 600 meters.

300 meter target:

[/I][/B]

 

[Mystic Precision]

The powder tech is very interesting.

Concerns are burn rate (maybe too fast for my applications???) and temp sensitivity.

The copper removing element seems to be working - at least from their article.

Love to hear more about your shooting results. Any interest in testing some real heavy bullets?

Jerry

 

[KDX]

Nice group. Here's a link to an article you may or may not be interested in. Savage Action Screw Torque Tuning

 

[CanuckWR]

The powder tech is very interesting.

Concerns are burn rate (maybe too fast for my applications???) and temp sensitivity.

The copper removing element seems to be working - at least from their article.

Love to hear more about your shooting results. Any interest in testing some real heavy bullets?

Jerry

Hodgdon lists CFE223 as slower than Varget, So the potential for heavier is there. I would love to give it a spin. Come to think of it I do have a box of 190gn SMK's kicking around.

Have you tried CFE223 with the 223 and 90gn Berger's? Its the best velocity for the 90gn SMK's on Hodgdons site.

Nice group. Here's a link to an article you may or may not be interested in. Savage Action Screw Torque Tuning

Damn, now I need another tool... lol

I have a few other things to try but this is now on my list.

 

[yodave]

Might shoot better if it was in a blue/black laminate stock............

impressive group and results none the less

 

[CanuckWR]

Might shoot better if it was in a blue/black laminate stock............

impressive group and results none the less

LMAO!

The 223 is in that stock. Its gonna get a go with th 90gn Bergers and CFE223.

 

[yodave]

mine is yellow and balck, 30 inch 7 twist.
going to follow your results and maybe pick up some of that powder to try, or maybe just start experimenting with adding powdered tin to all of my other powders until we get the ration down lol

 

[KDX]

Hodgdon lists CFE223 as slower than Varget, So the potential for heavier is there. I would love to give it a spin. Come to think of it I do have a box of 190gn SMK's kicking around.

Have you tried CFE223 with the 223 and 90gn Berger's? Its the best velocity for the 90gn SMK's on Hodgdons site.



Damn, now I need another tool... lol

I have a few other things to try but this is now on my list.

I bought a FAT torque screwdriver from Natchez. Maybe overkill, but I like having the option of using it.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Hodgdon lists CFE223 as slower than Varget, So the potential for heavier is there. I would love to give it a spin. Come to think of it I do have a box of 190gn SMK's kicking around.

Have you tried CFE223 with the 223 and 90gn Berger's? Its the best velocity for the 90gn SMK's on Hodgdons site.



Damn, now I need another tool... lol

I have a few other things to try but this is now on my list.

The article I read suggested it was faster then Varget so never bothered to take a look. Grrrr.... another powder to try.

Personally, I would just bed the stock/action properly and forgo the whole torque voodoo.

Jerry

 

[kmartel]

I'm thinkin the "mad scientist" part of CanuckWR may still succumb to denouncing the previously mentioned voodoo... Just sayin

 

[KDX]

I was thinking about the torque thing and even if a rifle is properly bedded I don't think it would hurt to torque the screws or bolts evenly. There are many examples in the automotive or mechanical world where things are torqued to specific measures and in sequences. Sometimes with a gasket between two surfaces and sometimes without. In the quest for accuracy doesn't every little bit count?

 

[CanuckWR]

Results. Day 2

Back at it today. With some very positive results.

Decided to develop the 48.4gn load and made some seating adjustments.

Conditions were a bit warmer, +7C today, and super bright. Some gusty wind from 6 o'clock.

Note the "Tactical Sock" rear rest. Works like a hot damn when filled with extra heavy ceramic sand.

Took it out to 300yrds this time.

JBM said 3.2MOA for 300yrds
Dialed 3.25MOA

The cold bore didn't feel right so I repositioned and printed the next 3.

This was the 0.020" jam load. For some reason I chambered load 5 and decided to cycle it out. Bullet stayed... I didn't bring a cleaning rod... Epic fail.

SO, Back at it tomorrow.

 

[CanuckWR]

I bought a FAT torque screwdriver from Natchez. Maybe overkill, but I like having the option of using it.

Gave it a shot. Its not like its going to hurt anything.

I'm thinkin the "mad scientist" part of CanuckWR may still succumb to denouncing the previously mentioned voodoo... Just sayin

Ya, So? lol

You are just poopy you had to work.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I was thinking about the torque thing and even if a rifle is properly bedded I don't think it would hurt to torque the screws or bolts evenly. There are many examples in the automotive or mechanical world where things are torqued to specific measures and in sequences. Sometimes with a gasket between two surfaces and sometimes without. In the quest for accuracy doesn't every little bit count?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your thinking. The problem, as it relates to rifles, is the use of torque (read - FORCE) to hold the action in place.

Most stocks today have overly generous inletting so that poor action rattles around. The simple solution was to jack up the action bolt torque to try and keep it all together.

A short term solution but many other problems can be created. Really bad if the bedding is not actually true (as in flat and inline with the barrel channel).

Can lead to bent actions and seriously wonky bolt lock up.

Bent and stretched action bolts are all too common on rifles that are shot. The action bolts are not really tough steel and were never designed as load bearing devices. That's where the recoil lug comes in.

With proper bedding, the action AND lug are properly supported so there is already precious little movement. The action bolts now only serve to keep the action and stock from separating.

The only need now is to keep the action bolts from loosening. Here a simple twist of the wrist gets the job done just fine.

The action bolt torque is only what is required to keep it from loosening - very little force.

See the difference?

Jerry

 

[KDX]

Clear as mud.

 

[CanuckWR]

Back out again yesterday for further testing.

Took the prefered CFE223 load out to 500m.

The first group of 3 was holding 1/2moa, then I shot 2 more and ruined it.

the positive news is that the speed numbers on the chrony are accurate, or as close as I can consider based on corrected elevation.

Unfortunately I don't have the numbers in front of me (at work) at the moment but I will add them later today.

But lets face it, all anyone really wants to know is how effective this load will be on the undead.

So, here it is!

I dialed in with Isnipe based on chrony speed and dope from 300. Corrected speed in Isnipe was 2900fps.

First shot hit low, (in the teeth) so came up 1 moa and whammy, KILL SHOT!

I think my chrony has been into the wacky tabacky.....

 

[KDX]

Nice shooting. I want to get out but it is way too windy for sighting in.

 

[CanuckWR]

Got out a bunch more this weekend and have learned a few more things about the CFE223 loads.

I have since dropped my max down about 1gn from previous accuracy load as I started to see pressure and had to pop out a sticky case with a cleaning rod. I am starting to give up the hope of having the elusive "SUPER" fast 308win.

The hard numbers are also telling me that looking into a heavier pill is probably going to be the solution to the problem here. I have checked my case capacity with water and come out to about 55.1gn to the neck +/-0.2gn. Depending on brand this is a bit tight and that may be where my pressure issues lie. However with a heavy load there is still room for about 4gns of powder before getting close to 100% capacity and I think this is having an effect on my ES and SD numbers.

The better loads I was seeing 92.5% powder fill and ES around 35-40fps and SD around 15-20fps. The worse loads..... Not worth talking about...

Its really hard to get a grip on the accuracy potential it has when 2 of 5 rounds in a group fly on you because they are 50fps off the group?!? I could post pics of seriously HOT groups piling 3 rounds at 200 into clovers then flyiers seemingly random and an inch off?!?

I could be the problem, can't rule that out, But it really seems I am working hard at a problem that just doesn't want to get better.

One more kick at the can, hopefully tomorrow if conditions cooperate.

Velocity is the girl all the boys chase, Accuracy is the one you end up marrying.