Did Soviet every issue captured K98 to soldiers during WW2?

[diegocn]

I know the Germans love to use captured soviet equipment. There are numerous photos of German soldiers with SVT40 and Mosins. They even gave official designations to various captured equipments.

Now I wonder about the reverse, is there any known example of Soviet soldiers using captured German rifles such as the K98? To what extend the captured equipment is used in the Red Army? Given the amount of RC k98 circulating around, someone somewhere must have thought about using them right?

If not, is it more of a political and cultural reason, or is it simply they don't need to use it by the time they start to capture them en masse?

Photos and sources are welcome.

 

[lanshoka]

There are many pictures on line of Russian partisans using captured German MP-40's, K98 rifles, and MG-34's. If you get a chance watch "Come And See" on Youtube with English captions. The partisans in the movie made heavy use of captured German weapons as well as using whatever Soviet firearms they could get.

It was common for regular Russian Red Army men to be photographed carrying MP-40's but I don't recall seeing any pictures of them with K98 rifles. I have however seen a few WW2 pictures on line of a group of Russian women soldiers wearing Soviet uniforms and armed mostly with K98's.

 

[Horilka]

On a frontline many had the privilege not to ask and use whatever they wanted. Nor Germans nor Soviets had wide practice of using rifles, as it's a common firearm and you better have same caliber as you unit. Different story for specialized items such as MGs, SMGs, semi-auto rifles etc, these were desirable on both sides... As for official issuing - I have seen the pictures of auxiliary staff armed with VZ24s and K98k. Basically one can say that German and Soviet policy on captured firearm was very similar and followed same logic.

 

[Potashminer]

I do not know the answer to your question, but suspect it would be about how to re-supply them. Had read a comment attributed to Boer General Joubert about fighting British Army in Second Boer War - the British provided the best supply system Joubert ever had - everything including boots, food, ammo and guns from the British supply wagons that Boers were able to capture, so the Boers apparently used whatever they could get supplied for. As above - not so helpful to have a K98 if your unit getting re-supplied with Mosin ammo, or vice versa, I suppose.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

I worked with a guy that was in WW2, Regina Rifles, he was issued a Thompson, but also carried and used an MP40
as he liked it better.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

My take is, by the time they captured German arms in quantity, their productive capacity had increased to the point of making it unnecessary. The Germans on the other hand fought a losing supply problem from beginning to end and had to use anything they could get their hands on.

Grizz

 

[tokguy]

I worked with a guy that was in WW2, Regina Rifles, he was issued a Thompson, but also carried and used an MP40
as he liked it better.

The only slight catch in that story... I got from a vet. The MP-40 sounded like...an MP-40 = enemy combatant. Supposedly quite distinctive. Vet who told me that said one of his tank crew had one and carried it...only after the armourer tweeked the spring to change the rate of fire to something more friendly sounding.
But who knows... any whom knew....are gone. Hand over heart.

 

[Quiet]

To me it seems unlikely that a photographer accompanied by a political officer would be encouraged to take propaganda photos of their hero's being equipped with enemy arms. While personally owned cameras were common items even for low-ranking soldiers in other armies during ww2 (my dad carried his camera throughout training and deployment to Africa, sending film home for developing), but I wonder if the same was true for the the ordinary soviet private? In a society where you could be purged as a "spy" for sending letters to your family, who would take the risk of sending film, even if you could afford a camera?

 

[medvedqc]

my grand dad as a partizan used mostly germans stuff they seized and they got most of the weapons from the russians and avoided them. he kept only russian pistol the rest was all german including a mauser with a scope on it.

 

[diegocn]

Very helpful answers. Good point on the official photographer unlikely to take pictures of soldiers with german arms due to political reasons. Also I'm sure partisans will use whatever arms they can lay their hands on. Also very good point on the squad weapons probably saw more usethan individual infantry small arms.

Also re the analysis of lack of necessity, could it be the german infantry small arm never quite offered any distinct advantages to the soviet counter part? I mean the germans loved the svt40 because they didn't have any semiauto battle rifles at the time. On the contrary, the soviet small arms covered everything the germans have to offer, probably with the exception of mp/stg44. But the role of stg44 can sometimes be replaced by the ppsh.

 

[9.3mauser]

I worked with a guy that was in WW2, Regina Rifles, he was issued a Thompson, but also carried and used an MP40
as he liked it better.

But 9mm was common on both sides. It's not like introducing a few 7.9x57 rifles into a supply chain of .303 or 7.62x54R. It's not like you can just wander off the line to scrounge ammo.

 

[woodchopper]

captured weapons would have been issued to rear area troops first to free up standard weapons for the front line, rear area would not need a lot of ammo resupply, unless they were being overrun, but then you have bigger problems.


I would imagine that any soviet support to Tito and the partisans would have included large numbers of German captured weapons.

 

[Horilka]

Also re the analysis of lack of necessity, could it be the german infantry small arm never quite offered any distinct advantages to the soviet counter part? I mean the germans loved the svt40 because they didn't have any semiauto battle rifles at the time. On the contrary, the soviet small arms covered everything the germans have to offer, probably with the exception of mp/stg44. But the role of stg44 can sometimes be replaced by the ppsh.

I would not agree to this statement completely. Soviets experienced huge losses of small arms inventory and factories were not able to catch up with supply of virtually anything in 1941-1942. Also for much longer period there was a deficit of LMG and SMGs (thus AVTs, and desirable captures of MGs, ZBs and MPs). So it was not about getting something better, it was about getting something to fulfill the role. Though in some cases it was better. DP-27 is not as good as MG-34 and MG-42 or ZB-30 and issues with PPSH-41(including poor reliability of disk mags) made MP40 desirable. Situation changed with switching to stick mags for PPSh and with PPS43 introduction (IMO the best WW2 SMG).

 

[cosmic]

Well - If you believe some of the old war movies, the Russians often issued a rifle to every other man during a frontal attack. The rationale being that you picked up a rifle from a fallen comrade. If this were true, I would imagine that any pickup rifle would do...

 

[XRCD011]

I would not agree to this statement completely. Soviets experienced huge losses of small arms inventory and factories were not able to catch up with supply of virtually anything in 1941-1942. Also for much longer period there was a deficit of LMG and SMGs (thus AVTs, and desirable captures of MGs, ZBs and MPs). So it was not about getting something better, it was about getting something to fulfill the role. Though in some cases it was better. DP-27 is not as good as MG-34 and MG-42 or ZB-30 and issues with PPSH-41(including poor reliability of disk mags) made MP40 desirable. Situation changed with switching to stick mags for PPSh and with PPS43 introduction (IMO the best WW2 SMG).

Nothing wrong with the PPSH41 and its drums, the box magazines where less expensive, easier to produce and easier to carry about in a magazine pouch. If fact the post war Soviet doctrine of AK armed troops firing bursts Vs aimed shots is a direct descendent of the wartime practice of firing bursts from a PPSH41...........sooner or later with enough bullets going outward the chances of a bullet and a target occupying the same space and time increase. I would also reverse the statement about who used what, as Germans greatly coveted the PPSH41 and used them extensively when captured .

 

[Horilka]

Nothing wrong with the PPSH41 and its drums

Allow me to quote Jan 1942 Artcom GAU (Artillery commission of Top Artillery Ministry, GAU was responsible for all type of arms, including small arms) document:

"PP-41 (my comment: PPSh-41) currently satisfies in its combat characteristics.... however has a number of complains expressed by army users...:
..
- Hard to change magazine, especially in the dark and on the move
- Magazine is too sensitive to dirt and to the accidental hits, falls out during the shooting and is not interchangeable (my comment - between two different PPSHs)"
Quoting from A.S. Yushchenko "Sub machine guns of Sudaev", page 22.

What are your sources when you say there was nothing wrong with PPSH-41 drum magazine?

 

[1-trident-1]

Well - If you believe some of the old war movies, the Russians often issued a rifle to every other man during a frontal attack. The rationale being that you picked up a rifle from a fallen comrade. If this were true, I would imagine that any pickup rifle would do...
this is true, my father was a conscript, and that was what happened on the front line.

 

[Deathrawt]

Allow me to quote Jan 1942 Artcom GAU (Artillery commission of Top Artillery Ministry, GAU was responsible for all type of arms, including small arms) document:

"PP-41 (my comment: PPSh-41) currently satisfies in its combat characteristics.... however has a number of complains expressed by army users...:
..
- Hard to change magazine, especially in the dark and on the move
- Magazine is too sensitive to dirt and to the accidental hits, falls out during the shooting and is not interchangeable (my comment - between two different PPSHs)"
Quoting from A.S. Yushchenko "Sub machine guns of Sudaev", page 22.

What are your sources when you say there was nothing wrong with PPSH-41 drum magazine?

Yep I've read that the PPSH had to be issued its own specific drums as not every drum worked in every gun. The stick mags were better and more reliable
I know the drum falls out rather easy on the suomi. I let a buddy shoot mine and as he raised it up to aim and shoot the drum dropped down to the ground lol

 

[XRCD011]

Allow me to quote Jan 1942 Artcom GAU (Artillery commission of Top Artillery Ministry, GAU was responsible for all type of arms, including small arms) document:

"PP-41 (my comment: PPSh-41) currently satisfies in its combat characteristics.... however has a number of complains expressed by army users...:
..
- Hard to change magazine, especially in the dark and on the move
- Magazine is too sensitive to dirt and to the accidental hits, falls out during the shooting and is not interchangeable (my comment - between two different PPSHs)"
Quoting from A.S. Yushchenko "Sub machine guns of Sudaev", page 22.

What are your sources when you say there was nothing wrong with PPSH-41 drum magazine?

My sources, first hand when I used mine extensively in those way back in time days that we could. Never had any issues with either full cap drums or box mags. I have a mix of Russian and Yugo drums and all operate(d) just fine. As for difficulties in seating mags, I can sort of give you that one as they are a little fussy to seat a drum or mag but training and weapons handling goes a long way at addressing that minor problem. There is a VERY good reason many wartime pictures of PPSH41 in action the soldier holding the drum in place (that and reaching around the drum while doable is not seen often). As for drums or boxes falling out, never encountered that myself, again handling and training go a long way in rectifying perceived weapon shortcomings.

 

[Horilka]

I am sure one user experience is very far from summarized experience from thousands of soldiers from battlefields.