Differences between M-16 and C7 ?

[Ltbull01]

I wouldn't call the three round burst garbage, and I have extensive experience on both. It has it's place. One of the main drives behind developing the 3-round burst was that many studies of troops returning fire in combat situations showed that there was a lot of 'spraying and praying', little fire discipline and wasting ammunition.

I don't believe you will see 'spray & pray' as an immediate reaction drill to enemy fire with the light fighters in the CF. The reason there is a full auto capacity is so that if the C9 is out, there is always a full auto capable weapon that can fire short and long burst depending on the situation. Anyone who does 'spray & pray' as an infanteer in the CF does not belong there. If you train properly, there is no need to duck'n'shoot. Poor discipline, inappropriate personnel and training with 'those' forces that did 'spray and pray' was the reason there was such shoddy fire discipline - which equates to poor discipline and leadership all round. Where was the Sergeant when that was happening? He should be kickin' the ass of those soldiers back on to the range to learn how real infanteers shoot!

 

[spi]

(shot the C1 once a year)

Dang! Only once a year?

My Corps shot them regularly and competed annually against out parent militia unit.

One of my best childhood memories was shooting the C2 out in Wainwright. I was 13-14 years old. I was trying to practice fire discipline and keeping it to 3-5 round bursts. Then the militiaman I was paired with leans over and says, "Go snake a figure 8 kid. You ain't paying for the ammo."

Like I said. One of my best childhood memories. Too bad we can't do that for our kids any more.

 

[spi]

As an aside, I kind of always thought that the "3 round burst" option was more of a marketing ploy than anything else.

I mean, it's the kind of thing that would appeal to a procurement officer or a logistics guy, as opposed to a guy who has been properly trained to shoot.

 

[echo4lima]

I don't believe you will see 'spray & pray' as an immediate reaction drill to enemy fire with the light fighters in the CF. The reason there is a full auto capacity is so that if the C9 is out, there is always a full auto capable weapon that can fire short and long burst depending on the situation. Anyone who does 'spray & pray' as an infanteer in the CF does not belong there. If you train properly, there is no need to duck'n'shoot. Poor discipline, inappropriate personnel and training with 'those' forces that did 'spray and pray' was the reason there was such shoddy fire discipline - which equates to poor discipline and leadership all round. Where was the Sergeant when that was happening? He should be kickin' the ass of those soldiers back on to the range to learn how real infanteers shoot!

Don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate for 3-rnd burst, just stating that it has it's reason for being here.

For you to state

I don't believe you will see 'spray & pray' as an immediate reaction drill to enemy fire with the light fighters in the CF

is silly, because, although you train hard to fight hard and develope muscle memory and instinctive shooting to avoid the undisciplined emptying of magazines, you cannot predict beyond certainty what each will do. You cannot tell me that you will remain cool calm and collected under fire unless or until you have been there. I consider myself quite well trained and disciplined but I tell you the first time we were hit with arty and the first firefight are downright scarey. Not saying I freaked out and emptied magazines in the general direction of the incoming rounds, but it did really drive up the pucker factor higher than I thought it would. So..... no matter how well trained you are, in the end Training + EXPERIENCE = Good Soldiering Techniques.

As far as a fully auto weapon on the front line, we deploy our squads with several M249 SAWs which provide the full auto we need right for supressing fire.

On leadership...you are pretty high on yourself condeming leadership, but I can also state that no matter how great a leader you yourself are, how great your 'Fit Reps' (your grading done by superiors based on your leadership, conduct etc) you can be ####-hot and still have a troop who freaks out. Don't tell me that something like that happens and it totally is blamed on poor leadership, your speaking like a rupert just out of officer's school when you talk like that, course seeing your handle, I could be right on the money. Strong, calm respected NCOs under fire bring calmness and confidence to the troops, but panic can also cause the reverse to happen, a sort of mob mentality, you cannot predict with certainty how each of your troops will react, you can only hope that training does what it is intended to do.

Where was the Sergeant when that was happening? He should be kickin' the ass of those soldiers back on to the range to learn how real infanteers shoot!

This was based on previous pre-3-round burst days, I do hope you are saying a lot of this with tongue in cheek, as a perfect military unit would work as such, but as we all know, there are always the odd fella who doesn't fit the form.


P.S. Regarding undisciplined spray and pray techniques. Did you know that it is a fact that up to 75% of Allied troops (CANADA inluded & US) in WW II DID NOT actually take aim and fire intentionally on enemy soldiers? They threw bullets down range (Spray and Pray) in hopes of hitting their target. That figure dropped to 25% during Vietnam era and less then that currently, training had made it easier mentally to take the life of your opponent.

 

[KevinB]

Ditto to E4L.

Until you get shot at (more than once, for the first time IMHE you sit and say - did that F^&%r just shoot at me...) you wont know how you are going to do. As your heat rate goes up you lose motor control - so you may end up mashing the trigger if its on auto and loosing many more rounds than you intended. However unless you are Custer at the Little Big Horn - or dumping suppressive rounds into a hoarde of oncoming enemy auto is wasted. Precision Semi-Auto fire kills.

I know one of the designers of the A2 - he is now the VP for MIL Operations at KAC -- many things where done right - however the Marine in him demanded the 0-800 sight - in a cbt weapon the A1 sight was a better idea.

I think the C7 was at the time the pinnacle of the M16 series

However we missed the boat on the C8 - as the Abu Dabi carbine (XM4) was being developed - that said the M203 the CF was ignoring and was still fixated on a war in Europe so hindsight it 20/20.

 

[DaveMachine]

Is it true that some guns that have a burst feature have a 'memory' to them? I can't remember exactly what I had heard but something along the lines of if the burst wasn't completed then the next time you would pull the trigger you would get the remainder of the rounds that weren't fired or some such?

 

[spi]

Is it true that some guns that have a burst feature have a 'memory' to them? I can't remember exactly what I had heard but something along the lines of if the burst wasn't completed then the next time you would pull the trigger you would get the remainder of the rounds that weren't fired or some such?

Yea, that's the 3 round burst ratchet on some mechanisms. I think I was told that the Daewoo was notorious for that.

 

[KevinB]

The A2's burst system is like that.

HK's is resetting

 

[echo4lima]

Ditto to E4L.

Until you get shot at (more than once, for the first time IMHE you sit and say - did that F^&%r just shoot at me...) you wont know how you are going to do. As your heat rate goes up you lose motor control - so you may end up mashing the trigger if its on auto and loosing many more rounds than you intended. However unless you are Custer at the Little Big Horn - or dumping suppressive rounds into a hoarde of oncoming enemy auto is wasted. Precision Semi-Auto fire kills.

Here, Here agree 100%...I laughed when I read

he first time IMHE you sit and say - did that F^&%r just shoot at me...?

so true, there is this almost unreal feeling of "How dare he do that?, F**k this is crazy"..LOL

and also:

Precision Semi-Auto fire kills.

x2 and P-E-R-I-O-D!

 

[echo4lima]

Is it true that some guns that have a burst feature have a 'memory' to them? I can't remember exactly what I had heard but something along the lines of if the burst wasn't completed then the next time you would pull the trigger you would get the remainder of the rounds that weren't fired or some such?

Yes occasionally and that is one of the fallbacks of the system...

 

[DaveMachine]

Could someone explain to me the circumstances under which the memory kicks in? I can't seem to remember.

 

[KevinB]

The M16A2 and M4 rachet is set to fire 3 rds -- if there is a stoppage it it will be set for X of that series of 3 rds. Or if you are firing on semi and flip to burst it will fire whatever the rachet is as 1, 2, or 3 rds...
If you fire 1 rds and have an empty mag the system will fire 2 rds when it is fired next (providing it is still on burst)

Additional you have three different (7-14lb trigger pulls) that it cycles thru even on semi auto.

Which is why discerning users get M4A1's

 

[DaveMachine]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Ltbull01]

Don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate for 3-rnd burst, just stating that it has it's reason for being here.

For you to state is silly, because, although you train hard to fight hard and develope muscle memory and instinctive shooting to avoid the undisciplined emptying of magazines, you cannot predict beyond certainty what each will do. You cannot tell me that you will remain cool calm and collected under fire unless or until you have been there. I consider myself quite well trained and disciplined but I tell you the first time we were hit with arty and the first firefight are downright scarey. Not saying I freaked out and emptied magazines in the general direction of the incoming rounds, but it did really drive up the pucker factor higher than I thought it would. So..... no matter how well trained you are, in the end Training + EXPERIENCE = Good Soldiering Techniques.

As far as a fully auto weapon on the front line, we deploy our squads with several M249 SAWs which provide the full auto we need right for supressing fire.

On leadership...you are pretty high on yourself condeming leadership, but I can also state that no matter how great a leader you yourself are, how great your 'Fit Reps' (your grading done by superiors based on your leadership, conduct etc) you can be ####-hot and still have a troop who freaks out. Don't tell me that something like that happens and it totally is blamed on poor leadership, your speaking like a rupert just out of officer's school when you talk like that, course seeing your handle, I could be right on the money. Strong, calm respected NCOs under fire bring calmness and confidence to the troops, but panic can also cause the reverse to happen, a sort of mob mentality, you cannot predict with certainty how each of your troops will react, you can only hope that training does what it is intended to do.


This was based on previous pre-3-round burst days, I do hope you are saying a lot of this with tongue in cheek, as a perfect military unit would work as such, but as we all know, there are always the odd fella who doesn't fit the form.

Refer to Shelby Stanton in "The Rise and Fall of the Amercian Army", in which he gives a compelling history of the collapse of leadership in the days of spray and pray. THAT is the leadership that was ineffectual. I won't back down from the assertion - leadership was bad due the pressures and politics of the Vietnam War - literally scraping the bottom of the barrel to get leadership in place. There was a derth of talent at the Pl Leader and Sgt levels towards the end of that war, notwithstanding that there were good leaders. Today, I would not say that about the US Army - they have grown from their experience and are as battle hardended as any.

I merely re-inforce that when an army has to put a regulator on it's rifle as a way to limit what a soldier can fire, that is an admission that fire discipline is an issue, hence discipline is an issue. Fire control is an essential command function. If there are soldiers who won't follow fire control orders - that is a HUGE problem. The junior leadership has to sort that out or get 'em off the line. Indeed, training + experience = good soldiering. But, training together, building cohesion and eliminating bad training scars is what builds better discipline. I am fairly certain that if other soldiers in the section had a sprayer and prayer, that problem would get sorted out real quick. If you're not taking up a firing position and watching your acrs, you are putting your fire team partner's life at risk. Personally, if I were his fire team partner, he'd get a boot in his ass.

WWII - we're well past that.

P.S. There's abit more to the ltBull moniker than meets the eye but 'ad hominem' is always a good default...

 

[KevinB]

Yes - but keep in mind that "spray and pray" draftee Army had the highest percentage of shooters ever. Up to then firing rates had been quite low.

I rather have a shooter that sprayed than simply did not fire...

 

[sf]

No more mad minute to greet the beginning of a new day?

 

[David K]

.. If I heard correctly, and this was some years ago, there was a Court Case, either threatened or was pending at the time over the Canadian Improvements, notably, a stronger, and more "goof proof" reciever and the raised sections(walls) around the magazine release button and some other "improvements" ... never did hear the outcome, nor was albe reliably verify the dispute between Diemaco and Colt.... David K.

 

[Ltbull01]

Kevin B - I'd rather have a soldier who listened to fire control orders, watched his arcs, covered his fire team partner and section mates and shot at an an identifiable enemy target. We are in the age where errant fire as collateral damage can have strategic consequences...hence the concept of the 'precision guided strategic munition' or the 5.56mm NATO: one round, one insurgent vs many rounds, kill/maime lots of locals around and accure the wrath of those locals whom surely will not help your cause now. I quote this from an American Stryker Bde Colonel who just returned from Iraq.

 

[Leeworthy]

Okay people, Im in the Canadian Military, the main difference between the C& and the M16 are as follows
1. The C& has vented hand guards with an aluminum cooling rack in side, (hence ours cool better) meaning more rounds through with less Jams
2. The Elcan site/scope is used it is almost indestructable (sp) and is amazing in low light conditions
3. The flash supressor on the front of our C7's are designed more to eliminate the flash even in low light conditions, the M16 is almost always seen once the light is out
4. The Butt of the rifle is fitted with a slot to allow for a cleaning kit

These are the basics differences Im sure there are a few more but I dont know them. The ones that I have listed are the ones that make the C7 OURS!

 

[recce]

Okay people, Im in the Canadian Military, the main difference between the C& and the M16 are as follows
1. The C& has vented hand guards with an aluminum cooling rack in side, (hence ours cool better) meaning more rounds through with less Jams

The U.S. rifles had this before we adopted it


2. The Elcan site/scope is used it is almost indestructable (sp) and is amazing in low light conditions


Ducks for cover


3. The flash supressor on the front of our C7's are designed more to eliminate the flash even in low light conditions, the M16 is almost always seen once the light is out

Same flash eliminator as the U.S. rifles (the A1s had slots in the bottom, the open 3 prong style were replaced almost 40 years ago)


4. The Butt of the rifle is fitted with a slot to allow for a cleaning kit


So is the U.S. rifle (The original one in the 60's didn't, changed before we adopted)

These are the basics differences Im sure there are a few more but I dont know them. The ones that I have listed are the ones that make the C7 OURS!

I think you'll find that a few of the people who replied to this thread are also in the Cdn military. Welcome to the forum.