I've seen in on a FA 223 with an overheated barrel. The lead core softens from the heat, which results in jacket separation and the whole thing comes apart shortly after it exits the muzzle. It looked like a faint grey streak maybe 15' from the muzzle.
Different coals
- Thread starter davide montini
- Start date
I've seen in on a FA 223 with an overheated barrel. The lead core softens from the heat, which results in jacket separation and the whole thing comes apart shortly after it exits the muzzle. It looked like a faint grey streak maybe 15' from the muzzle.
Many thanks to those who stayed long enough to read my babble - sorry for the length.
It is amazing to try to comprehend all the little things going on when the pin hits the primer - the deeper we go into each thing, the more I realize that I know nothing, and lacking a full range of experience, I end up supposing things in error - and then other remembered pictures come back - like of barrels exploded from a cleaning rod left in - what a mess - and then there is something different between the natural rise of pressures and what they call detonation, where it goes radical - I wonder where all the extra instant-energy comes from... and if that could be harnessed in another sort of application - like generation of electrical power. The word detonation is used for the pre-ignition event in diesels, but that is a much lower pressure thing... could we make an engine that could work at 100,000 psi to get more energy out of ... whatever makes guns detonate? Likely someone has tried gunpowder as an engine fuel - but maybe other fuels could experience this super-high detonation-thing too.
There is the acceleration of the bullet, but also the increase in rotational speed also - it won't be me that can write a comprehensive thesis on this event - and we haven't even touched the target and what happens there - I shot three very lightweight bullets at 4200 fps (chronyed) at a 60 degree angled solid steel backstop and it carved notches in the plate - I can't explain now varmint bullets with thin copper cases and a plastic tip can do that - they are made to disintegrate in a gopher. When I fire 45 cal lead at this same angled backstop, the lead sprays in all directions, including back up the plate - but none of it bounces - it all stays flat with the plate as it sprays. These observations are strange, but somehow the mind is hungry for little things that mess up our suppositions.
Reading of of real-life stuff (remember the "This happened to Me" in Outdoor Life magazine?) is awesome - when stuff gets outside of our control, and all we can do is watch.
Observing the consequences when we do stupid stuff ( wisdom meets stupidity in a narrow hallway?) is wonderful - the suppositions give way to the King - Truth stands sovereign. It seem like now, doing nothing is the stupid stuff - what will be the consequences of kids... and too many adults, sitting and doing nothing with their phone - and with their... our life?
The impact which follows the explosion of strange things will not be long or far away.
Snow has begun to fall - I'd better get out and flip that skiff over and tidy up a little.
Thanks for talking Gentlemen.
It is amazing to try to comprehend all the little things going on when the pin hits the primer - the deeper we go into each thing, the more I realize that I know nothing, and lacking a full range of experience, I end up supposing things in error - and then other remembered pictures come back - like of barrels exploded from a cleaning rod left in - what a mess - and then there is something different between the natural rise of pressures and what they call detonation, where it goes radical - I wonder where all the extra instant-energy comes from... and if that could be harnessed in another sort of application - like generation of electrical power. The word detonation is used for the pre-ignition event in diesels, but that is a much lower pressure thing... could we make an engine that could work at 100,000 psi to get more energy out of ... whatever makes guns detonate? Likely someone has tried gunpowder as an engine fuel - but maybe other fuels could experience this super-high detonation-thing too.
There is the acceleration of the bullet, but also the increase in rotational speed also - it won't be me that can write a comprehensive thesis on this event - and we haven't even touched the target and what happens there - I shot three very lightweight bullets at 4200 fps (chronyed) at a 60 degree angled solid steel backstop and it carved notches in the plate - I can't explain now varmint bullets with thin copper cases and a plastic tip can do that - they are made to disintegrate in a gopher. When I fire 45 cal lead at this same angled backstop, the lead sprays in all directions, including back up the plate - but none of it bounces - it all stays flat with the plate as it sprays. These observations are strange, but somehow the mind is hungry for little things that mess up our suppositions.
Reading of of real-life stuff (remember the "This happened to Me" in Outdoor Life magazine?) is awesome - when stuff gets outside of our control, and all we can do is watch.
Observing the consequences when we do stupid stuff ( wisdom meets stupidity in a narrow hallway?) is wonderful - the suppositions give way to the King - Truth stands sovereign. It seem like now, doing nothing is the stupid stuff - what will be the consequences of kids... and too many adults, sitting and doing nothing with their phone - and with their... our life?
The impact which follows the explosion of strange things will not be long or far away.
Snow has begun to fall - I'd better get out and flip that skiff over and tidy up a little.
Thanks for talking Gentlemen.
Seen it happen back when cup and core bullets were the only thing available with a few fast 22's. Some jackets were thicker, and you soon learned what worked and what didnt. - dan
- Location
- sudbury, ontario
Ok ya I get it about bullets coming apart
But it’s not what I ask ...it was c .o .a .l and pressure
I guess I will just reload to 3.080 over all length ??
Thanks to all
But it’s not what I ask ...it was c .o .a .l and pressure
I guess I will just reload to 3.080 over all length ??
Thanks to all
Varying coal's and bullets are going to give you varying pressures. First thing you need to know is what the max coal is with your chosen bullets, that is the length touching the rifling. Ideally, you seat Barnes X bullets and similar 0.050" off the lands. Of course you have to consider what fits and feeds easily out of your magazine as well. Jamming bullets into the lands will definately increase your pressure, all else being equal. I would start at the recommended coal to begin with. Then you can vary it by 5 thou or so, and test the loads at each one. - dan
Fairly certain I said this earlier in this thread ...... FORGET COAL. It is an ENTIRELY WORTHLESS dimension.
Get a proper gauge to allow you to measure to the ogive. That is the only way to properly set the seating depth for your rifle.
Bullets vary greatly in the distance from ogive to the tip, thus any measurement that involves the tip of the bullet is guaranteed to be inconsistent.
Yes - if you are inclined to learn, listen to these fellows.
Measure the length of a few bullets and notice how much difference there is - especially if they have lead points. Your bullet seater die pushes the bullet into the case by contact on a part of the ogive which is much closer to the place where it will eventually contact the throat of the chamber so it will be much more consistent than measuring OAL.
Setting your bullet seating die can be done like this:
Use a fired case and carefully start a bullet into it - and it might slide in relatively easily because it hasn't been sized yet.
Put this bullet into the chamber, and close the bolt carefully so that it is locked up.
Use a cleaning rod and tap this case back out - the bullet would likely be stuck in the rifling just a little.
Measure the overall length with calipers and then seat it another 20 thousandths ( if that is your planned clearance).
Chamber it again - this time, it should not stick. If it does, seat it just a little deeper and try again.
Measure it again and then pull the bullet and put some epoxy on it and slide it in to the correct overall length, and let it harden and clean it up.
This powderless cartridge is now your tool to set the bullet seating die - Just put it in and bring your seater die down gently on top of this bullet and tighten the lock nut.
Now, there may be some variation of the COL, but that does not matter because the place that the seater die contacts is going to be perfectly uniform.
* EDIT TO ADD (Thank-you Gentlemen) This must be done for each new projectile - label them with marker.
It is just a cheap way to get by, but the way it is all going, we may be soon discussing what cast-lead bullet from Lee works in a 300 WSSM - and how to make gas checks out of flattened copper wire.
There are better tools available - consult your reloading supply guy and your pocketbook.*
It is a little confusing that the books talk about COL as if it mattered for more than to make sure that the cartridge will fit the magazine. ( I prefer clip, but y'know - folks get all huffy about that term.)
Going back to your original question - you were wondering if a .004 inch change in COL will give a pressure change - nope - not enough to worry about, but if you measured COL of each cartridge and made them all the same, you could easily have more than .010 inch variation because of damaged tips etc. - and this inconsistency, most handloaders would not allow. More EDIT: * Your Browning semi very possibly has lots of depth in the throat.
I haven't seen any agreement between my chrony and the claims that "Extreme" powder is any better than those that are not labeled as having advantage in wide temperature changes. Fast powders - pistol especially - all seem to have a lot of velocity drop in cold temps.*
Someone will likely have more to add, or change here - please chime in and fix this up - this sort of stuff is not just for the OP, but for anyone that cares enough to read this far.
Things ... people ... have changed, and if we lose patience as we listen, the ol' fellas that know stuff will just stop talking - and that is a great loss. It may be that this shooting stuff may matter very little, but human respect in interaction is worth more than we can imagine. It is Remembrance Day today - let's remember to respect the Living too.
Measure the length of a few bullets and notice how much difference there is - especially if they have lead points. Your bullet seater die pushes the bullet into the case by contact on a part of the ogive which is much closer to the place where it will eventually contact the throat of the chamber so it will be much more consistent than measuring OAL.
Setting your bullet seating die can be done like this:
Use a fired case and carefully start a bullet into it - and it might slide in relatively easily because it hasn't been sized yet.
Put this bullet into the chamber, and close the bolt carefully so that it is locked up.
Use a cleaning rod and tap this case back out - the bullet would likely be stuck in the rifling just a little.
Measure the overall length with calipers and then seat it another 20 thousandths ( if that is your planned clearance).
Chamber it again - this time, it should not stick. If it does, seat it just a little deeper and try again.
Measure it again and then pull the bullet and put some epoxy on it and slide it in to the correct overall length, and let it harden and clean it up.
This powderless cartridge is now your tool to set the bullet seating die - Just put it in and bring your seater die down gently on top of this bullet and tighten the lock nut.
Now, there may be some variation of the COL, but that does not matter because the place that the seater die contacts is going to be perfectly uniform.
* EDIT TO ADD (Thank-you Gentlemen) This must be done for each new projectile - label them with marker.
It is just a cheap way to get by, but the way it is all going, we may be soon discussing what cast-lead bullet from Lee works in a 300 WSSM - and how to make gas checks out of flattened copper wire.
There are better tools available - consult your reloading supply guy and your pocketbook.*
It is a little confusing that the books talk about COL as if it mattered for more than to make sure that the cartridge will fit the magazine. ( I prefer clip, but y'know - folks get all huffy about that term.)
Going back to your original question - you were wondering if a .004 inch change in COL will give a pressure change - nope - not enough to worry about, but if you measured COL of each cartridge and made them all the same, you could easily have more than .010 inch variation because of damaged tips etc. - and this inconsistency, most handloaders would not allow. More EDIT: * Your Browning semi very possibly has lots of depth in the throat.
I haven't seen any agreement between my chrony and the claims that "Extreme" powder is any better than those that are not labeled as having advantage in wide temperature changes. Fast powders - pistol especially - all seem to have a lot of velocity drop in cold temps.*
Someone will likely have more to add, or change here - please chime in and fix this up - this sort of stuff is not just for the OP, but for anyone that cares enough to read this far.
Things ... people ... have changed, and if we lose patience as we listen, the ol' fellas that know stuff will just stop talking - and that is a great loss. It may be that this shooting stuff may matter very little, but human respect in interaction is worth more than we can imagine. It is Remembrance Day today - let's remember to respect the Living too.
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There is no consistancy from rifle to rifle with respect to chamber throat dimensions. This si why the COAl listed in the book is of no value. It causes more problems than it solves.
It would be better, I think, if the manual just indicated how far off the land the bullet was. You can duplicate that jump in your rifle.
Most of my loading is for accuracy. I have found that lead core bullets work well at 20 though off the rifling, and that is enough jump to solve any minor issues that occur.
I seldom load solid copper bullets, but when I do I load 50 thou off and carry on.
I use a tool like this to make a note in my log of the tool distance that gets me 20 thou off. Once I have this length, I can switch bullets and use the tool to adjust to a seating depth that will be about 20 thou. The tool sits on the edge of the ogive.
The tool is easily made with a piece of barrel.
It would be better, I think, if the manual just indicated how far off the land the bullet was. You can duplicate that jump in your rifle.
Most of my loading is for accuracy. I have found that lead core bullets work well at 20 though off the rifling, and that is enough jump to solve any minor issues that occur.
I seldom load solid copper bullets, but when I do I load 50 thou off and carry on.
I use a tool like this to make a note in my log of the tool distance that gets me 20 thou off. Once I have this length, I can switch bullets and use the tool to adjust to a seating depth that will be about 20 thou. The tool sits on the edge of the ogive.
The tool is easily made with a piece of barrel.
There is no consistancy from rifle to rifle with respect to chamber throat dimensions. This si why the COAl listed in the book is of no value. It causes more problems than it solves.
It would be better, I think, if the manual just indicated how far off the land the bullet was. You can duplicate that jump in your rifle.
Most of my loading is for accuracy. I have found that lead core bullets work well at 20 though off the rifling, and that is enough jump to solve any minor issues that occur.
I seldom load solid copper bullets, but when I do I load 50 thou off and carry on.
I use a tool like this to make a note in my log of the tool distance that gets me 20 thou off. Once I have this length, I can switch bullets and use the tool to adjust to a seating depth that will be about 20 thou. The tool sits on the edge of the ogive.
The tool is easily made with a piece of barrel.
Those are very handy. Someone used to sell them, but I dont recall who. - dan
I'll add you need to do this (or similar) with every different weight or design of bullet you use. - dan
Correct.
You are 100% correct. Very bad practice to file off the tip of a FMJ to make it a hunting bullet and should still be mentioned today especially with the crazy price of ammo and components.
History is going to repeat itself if this practice isn't mentioned.
Good job bringing it forward.
- Location
- sudbury, ontario
To all that responded here I thank you oh so very much and appreciated it
So after all the testing here it is
Coal 3.080....it produced a dime shot group and with a velocity of 3050 FPS
Ya I’m scratching my head on accuracy and velocity this is now my new load for my browning bar in 25 06
I did try for higher velocity but it started to show signs of pressure and way more recoil
Again I’m just surprised at my load for this rifle this is done and I won’t change a thing
This is a deer and coyote/bear I have dope out to 400 meters ... if I can’t make the first shot count or the next 2 after that ...I don’t shoot the 4th or 5th
If I can figure out how to post the group I will post it
Cheers to all
So after all the testing here it is
Coal 3.080....it produced a dime shot group and with a velocity of 3050 FPS
Ya I’m scratching my head on accuracy and velocity this is now my new load for my browning bar in 25 06
I did try for higher velocity but it started to show signs of pressure and way more recoil
Again I’m just surprised at my load for this rifle this is done and I won’t change a thing
This is a deer and coyote/bear I have dope out to 400 meters ... if I can’t make the first shot count or the next 2 after that ...I don’t shoot the 4th or 5th
If I can figure out how to post the group I will post it
Cheers to all
