Different grains in 9mm ammo = big difference in shooting?

Buy a CZ 75B/85 Combat and the .22LR Kadet Kit and have the best of both worlds. The Kadet Kit will consume any and all types of .22LR ammo including the cheap stuff, is easily one of the most accurate .22 pistols, when attached to the 75B/85C frame I have ever shot. You get the benefit of practicing with the same gun you will shoot using center fire ammo and will set you back as much as a dedicated .22 pistol.

Take Care

Bob
 
I've read nothing but good things about the Kadet kits. But for me I prefer a whole separate gun. A big part of my own training to get better and to cure my flinch issues was the ability to flow smoothly from the .22 to the center fire and back again during a session. If I had to take even a minute to swap top ends this flow would have been broken. So for that reason I'm a fan of having a separate gun.

I'm also someone that enjoys shooting a number of different guns. And the biggest advantage to having the .22 share the exact same frame is to train your muscles to grip and hold the exact same way each time. But that whole thing goes out the window if you have any other guns besides the CZ Combat and Kadet kit. Toss in a 1911 and a few revolvers and now you need to learn to adapt on the fly to each one anyway. So at that point all you need is a .22 that shares the same sort of grip angle as the CZ and 1911. That means in the case of a Ruger as the .22 it should be one of the 22/45's as opposed to the Mk series with their Luger like grip angles. And since most of us have a number of pistols or on our way to having a few I think the whole .22 kit to center fire similarity is a little overblown. Yes the reasons are valid but only if we don't buy anything else to mess up the familiarization process.
 
B said:
I am surprised 9mm makes any shooter of even limited experience flinch. I find it quite pleasant and almost sort of boring.
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Flinching is a natural response and everyone does it. Without constant and vigilant practice your flinch will both return and get worse. Flinching is especially prevalent when firing rapid or consecutive shots.

TDC
 
B, you must be used to larger calibers then or you've shot so much over the years that any flinch you had in the early days is now forgotten.

But for us newbies flinching with 9mm is very real and sneaks back at times during our first couple of years. I still find myself getting a little of it back even after a year and a half and about 6000 rounds of center fire and likely another 4 to 5000 of .22 under my belt if I don't get out regularly.
 
mudgunner49 said:
Did you fail physics:rolleyes: - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - remember that?? Think about it and get back to us...:D
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Ok, I may have better said 'felt recoil' to be perfectly correct.

The way it works: heavier bullet will get moving slower due to weight than lighter one; it's usually longer and takes more case space and needs less and slower burning powder. Muzzle or top velosity will be lower than lighter bullet, energy may be the same. Felt recoil will be lower though.
 
We do a fiar amount of shooting at 25 meters; many of them are reloads. We find that once you find the optimum load for that gun and that load, conisdering equal qulaity bullets, that the 147's are more accurate than either the 115's or 124's. Also, the Winchester Ranger ammo has been found to be finicky as to waht guns it shoots well in, and what ones it does not.
 
My experience has been that each gun does better with some brands/bullet weights than others. When reloading, I start with a load that will barely run the slide and work up to max. Usually one load is clearly beter than others.


Your first ammo might have bee what the gun really likes. Twist is not likely an issue. The only handgun I have seen that has a twist issue is the S&W 52. Twist is a bit slow.
 
Be confident when you shoot and sqeeze that trigger like you mean to send a message to that target. Don't get discouraged pick a load you feel comfortable with and get to the range and practice,skill will come as you get familiar with your pistol and selected load,no suprises--same thing happens every time you sqeeze the triger
 
mudgunner49 said:
Did you fail physics:rolleyes: - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - remember that?? Think about it and get back to us...:D
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The recoil impulse Ir of a small arm can be roughly described as:

I_r = V_0 \cdot m_p \cdot 1{.}75c

Where:

V0 is the muzzle velocity
mp is the mass of the projectile
c is the mass of the propellant charge

Do you suppose muzzle velocity and powder charge affect recoil too?
 
Ruger22, what's the "cdot" and the {.} symbol in your equation?

Either way if this equation is presented to show how a heavier bullet has a more spaced out and softer felt impulse then I'm totally on board.

I'm just getting started in reloading 9mm and working up a safe but low power load for IPSC production. I might have made a mistake by buying 2000 124's.

In talking with a few folks I bought a hundred 147's and have tried a few test loads. I'm REALLY likeing the feel of the 147's. They push easier on the hand and raise the muzzle either less distance or with a more gentle impulse that I think will be easier for making a quick follow up shot. The only issue I've seen in the early testing is that the bullet is leaving the barrel later so the shots are hitting the target a little above the POA of the sights which are set up for factory 9 velocities.
 
BCRider said:
Ruger22, what's the "cdot" and the {.} symbol in your equation?

Either way if this equation is presented to show how a heavier bullet has a more spaced out and softer felt impulse then I'm totally on board.

I'm just getting started in reloading 9mm and working up a safe but low power load for IPSC production. I might have made a mistake by buying 2000 124's.

In talking with a few folks I bought a hundred 147's and have tried a few test loads. I'm REALLY likeing the feel of the 147's. They push easier on the hand and raise the muzzle either less distance or with a more gentle impulse that I think will be easier for making a quick follow up shot. The only issue I've seen in the early testing is that the bullet is leaving the barrel later so the shots are hitting the target a little above the POA of the sights which are set up for factory 9 velocities.
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Not only that but the 147's actually produce less recoil at the same PF. The 9MM not always, but can be sensitive to bullet weight and velocities when it comes to accuracy. That said I really haven't noticed any difference between 124 gr and 147 grainers when it comes to accuracy. The 1 in 10 twist of most 9MM guns favours the 124 gr bullet but my nines like the 147 as well.

PM me your email addy and I can send you my reloading spreadsheet. All loads shot over a F1 Chrony. It might get you where you want to be a little faster.

Take Care

Bob
 
BCRider said:
Ruger22, what's the "cdot" and the {.} symbol in your equation?

Woops this copied and pasted bad...:redface:
Got it from here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil

The formula shows that less powder and slower velocity reduce recoil.

Therefore the bigger bullet (refer to your load data) is
using less powder and moving slower.
And the bigger bullet does not necessary mean more recoil as incorrectly stated by MTF...

"I would add that recoil is proportional to the weight of the bullet"
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the 147's roll more like a 45, then snap the gun, the way the 115's do. I don't mind em, except that find some guns don't like em without changing to a lighter spring due to the lower slide velocity, and some need sights changed due to impact difference.

BCRider said:
Ruger22, what's the "cdot" and the {.} symbol in your equation?

Either way if this equation is presented to show how a heavier bullet has a more spaced out and softer felt impulse then I'm totally on board.

I'm just getting started in reloading 9mm and working up a safe but low power load for IPSC production. I might have made a mistake by buying 2000 124's.

In talking with a few folks I bought a hundred 147's and have tried a few test loads. I'm REALLY likeing the feel of the 147's. They push easier on the hand and raise the muzzle either less distance or with a more gentle impulse that I think will be easier for making a quick follow up shot. The only issue I've seen in the early testing is that the bullet is leaving the barrel later so the shots are hitting the target a little above the POA of the sights which are set up for factory 9 velocities.
Click to expand...
 
Maybe with factory 147's but with my 940 to 970 fps loads I've made so far as test batches there's no sudden lift like a 115. And I'm not even low enough yet. 900 fps is 132 PF for a 147. By that time it's going to feel like they are almost dribbling out the end... :D
 
ruger22 said:
The recoil impulse Ir of a small arm can be roughly described as:

I_r = V_0 \cdot m_p \cdot 1{.}75c

Where:

V0 is the muzzle velocity
mp is the mass of the projectile
c is the mass of the propellant charge

Do you suppose muzzle velocity and powder charge affect recoil too?
Click to expand...

It is the difference in the rate of ACCELERATION of the mass of the bullet that makes the difference in PERCEIVED recoil. Even when the muzzle energy is the same.
 
SandRoad said:
It is the difference in the rate of ACCELERATION of the mass of the bullet that makes the difference in PERCEIVED recoil. Even when the muzzle energy is the same.
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Nohing perceived about it. Ther simply is less recoil at the same power factor ie Bullet weight x Velocity. If you load three bullets weighing 115, 125 and 147 grains all at the same power factor of say 130 recoil as evidenced by muzzle flip and felt recoil will be the most with the lightest bullet and the least with the heavier bullet.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Nohing perceived about it. Ther simply is less recoil at the same power factor ie Bullet weight x Velocity. If you load three bullets weighing 115, 125 and 147 grains all at the same power factor of say 130 recoil as evidenced by muzzle flip and felt recoil will be the most with the lightest bullet and the least with the heavier bullet.
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That is why it is called perceived recoil. For a given PF, the total recoil force applied is identical regardless of bullet weight. That is physics, Newton's Second Law of Motion to be specific.

However because the recoil is distributed over a longer time, your hand/arm/body, can "absorb" and "control" the recoil better. Result is the gun feels and is more controllable.
 
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