And therein lies the problem. Half the stuff that has helped us understand ancient societies could itself be classified as plundered. I bet you half the stuff in some national museums were sold to the museum after being plundered from some tomb or grave site.
Digging up the past in Russia - NSFW
- Thread starter drache
- Start date
And therein lies the problem. Half the stuff that has helped us understand ancient societies could itself be classified as plundered. I bet you half the stuff in some national museums were sold to the museum after being plundered from some tomb or grave site.
OK there are some skeptics here but remember, there were hundreds of thousands of people killed on the eastern front. It appears, from some of these pics at least, that they've obviously discovered a few (German) mass graves etc. That would explain the piles of bones. When troops were killed in great numbers, or froze to death in Russia, they were probably left for days or longer without burial. Then, when someone finally get around to doing the job, it wasn't all pretty like in the movies. They were piled in on top of one another. So a few rusty bayonets and buttons are stolen !! I would say that even if a few of these troops were identified, and the rest of them simply laid to rest, it would be worth it. Its the least I could hope for if it happened to me.
You're kidding right? The Germans may have left orderly cemeteries for their own fallen comrades but there is plenty of evidence for how the Germans buried Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Russians, POWs...
And I don't doubt the Russians enacted their own revenge in return.
20 million killed, including civilians during the eastern campaign is probably more accurate. Greatful that fellow posters picked me up on that (Sunray). I just wanted to comment that besides graphic photos of skulls and shattered bodies, and the undoubted grave robbing that goes on, that sooner or later (if) these troops surface they'll hopefully get the burial they deserve.
There was a poster on this site from the Ukraine. She sent dozens of photos. Most of the stuff she sent didn't show such a marvelous state of presevation.
From the looks of those remains and relics, they came from peat bogs and ponds. They are draining a lot of those areas to get at the peat over there and in some cases, drain them and put them back into the productive fields they once were.
In many cases they were old battlefields that shifted every day, especially during the openening months of the Russian offensive. Then again at the end of the war. The forests and bogs all through Europe have this stuff in them.
If I remember correctly, the girl from the Ukraine mentioned that they were having trouble getting Germany and Russia to accept the bodies. Even the Ukraine, which had a lot of citizens in axis uniforms was showing reluctance. To repatriate the fallen is expensive and time consuming. The politicians today really couldn't care less. They might pay lip service to it but that's about it.
I don't agree that it's grave robbing, especially if the goal is to repatriate the fallen. If it's just souvenier hunting at its grizzliest form then, it is grave robbing.
That war is over. Those are just empty skeletons. They do serve as a terrible reminder of what lays under our feet though.
From the looks of those remains and relics, they came from peat bogs and ponds. They are draining a lot of those areas to get at the peat over there and in some cases, drain them and put them back into the productive fields they once were.
In many cases they were old battlefields that shifted every day, especially during the openening months of the Russian offensive. Then again at the end of the war. The forests and bogs all through Europe have this stuff in them.
If I remember correctly, the girl from the Ukraine mentioned that they were having trouble getting Germany and Russia to accept the bodies. Even the Ukraine, which had a lot of citizens in axis uniforms was showing reluctance. To repatriate the fallen is expensive and time consuming. The politicians today really couldn't care less. They might pay lip service to it but that's about it.
I don't agree that it's grave robbing, especially if the goal is to repatriate the fallen. If it's just souvenier hunting at its grizzliest form then, it is grave robbing.
That war is over. Those are just empty skeletons. They do serve as a terrible reminder of what lays under our feet though.
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ha, the Russkies still hate the Germans for WW2, and their "amateur archeologists" are thinly veiled graverobbers, and the plethora of ostfront items on ebay will attest. Digging is one thing, but using skulls as candleholders quite another. I'm sure there are some legitimate interests at work, but I bet dollars to potato vodka that most of that stuff ends up in markets or ebay. Criminal.
At what point does grave robbing cross over into the legitimate and become archaeology?
IIRC In first year archaeology they clear up that distinction.
In a nutshell digging up graves looking for artifacts to sell with no regard for the bodies or scientific value is grave Robbing, AKA pothunters...Indiana Jones would be considered a pot hunter in real life.
I bet that soviet MG would still work if cleaned up, sadly I bet the Ukraine police will chop it up.
I bet that soviet MG would still work if cleaned up, sadly I bet the Ukraine police will chop it up.
...Or put it in to service depending on how desperate times are
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
One has to remember just what the germans did to the Russians and no distinction was made between soldiers and civillians. Herding people into churches and barns and then setting them on fire, mass executions of civillians because one german soldier was shot at by partizans. Starvation in Konzentrationlagers. And it was not only the Einzats gruppen that did that, When they were short of the SS, the Whermacht were willing helpers. I really have no sympathy. There are literaly mountains of bones remaining at some of those camps and NONE of them were every returned to families primarily because the families were also in those piles.
one also has to remember that the russians did the exact same thing on their way back through
so tbh they're both a-holes for doing it
I remember a documentary that was shown recently. It showed the Russians burying the dead during WWII. In the spring, when the bodies thawed things got pretty bad. The bodies were beds of pestilence and disease. The weapons were mostly rendered useless by the elements and from contact with putrefying cadavers. They dug big pits and threw the bodies and equipment into them. They didn't even try to separate the the Soviet and Axis bodies. From the look of them, I don't blame them one bit.
The same thing was done in the may trenches and stronghold on the every front of the war. You had to get rid of the bodies as soon as possible, especially in the summer time. The niceties our armies appreciate today, just didn't exist back then.
African battlefields are littered with the dead, so are the SE Asian battlefields. The only ones that are at all worried about reclaiming the bodies for proper burial are the western participants. The Asians have a much more practical view of death and bodies. That doesn't mean they don't respect the dead or that under peaceful circumstances they don't perform ceremonial burials because they do it and with reverence.
Look at what they are still digging up from WWI. Both sides utilised shared mass grave sites. Not only that, just like WWII, Angola, Belgian Congo and Viet Nam to name a few, they forgot where a lot of them were or just accepted the fact that they received a warriors grave and as such honored their memories by leaving them be.
In another documentary, they were showing trenches outside of Stalingrad that were being excavated. They were doing this on a large scale and respectfully. The Soviets wanted to utilise the ground for crops but there was so much ordnance that was explosive cropping up and killing people, they couldn't persuade anyone to farm it seriously. They made an agreement to repatriate any bodies they found that could be identified with whatever nation they came from. The rest, went into mass graves. They were mostly jumbles of bones and impossible to put together into complete skeletons. They did keep all of the ID tags they could locate and send them back though. When they unearthed the bodies, many were less than a meter beneath the surface. All of their equipment was buried with them. Even the Soviet soldiers didn't loot the bodies of valuables, like wallets, medals and desperately needed boots. They may have hated them but still respected the dead. I don't know, maybe it was just superstition or maybe they hated the axis troops so much they refused to have anything to do with them.
Times were different back then. It wouldn't take a lot for things to degenerate to those levels again. Look at the underlying religious and racists ideas that exist in the world today. The middle east is just starting to boil over. Look at Canada, UK, USA, France and the rest of Europe. There are a lot of inbred antagonisms still in play just beneath the surface. Once they get a chance to be released with impunity, they will emerge with a vengeance.
One thing about those bodies, they serve as a reminder to humanity's dark side. That really bothers a lot of people. As far as I'm concerned, the dead are husks. What made them vibrant and individual, is long gone. They are past caring. That doesn't mean we should disrespect them or their sacrifices, no matter which side they were on. Lets face it, no rational man wants to go to war. Not in our society anyway. In some societies, that just isn't the case. Either that or the difference between living and dieing is nothing.
The same thing was done in the may trenches and stronghold on the every front of the war. You had to get rid of the bodies as soon as possible, especially in the summer time. The niceties our armies appreciate today, just didn't exist back then.
African battlefields are littered with the dead, so are the SE Asian battlefields. The only ones that are at all worried about reclaiming the bodies for proper burial are the western participants. The Asians have a much more practical view of death and bodies. That doesn't mean they don't respect the dead or that under peaceful circumstances they don't perform ceremonial burials because they do it and with reverence.
Look at what they are still digging up from WWI. Both sides utilised shared mass grave sites. Not only that, just like WWII, Angola, Belgian Congo and Viet Nam to name a few, they forgot where a lot of them were or just accepted the fact that they received a warriors grave and as such honored their memories by leaving them be.
In another documentary, they were showing trenches outside of Stalingrad that were being excavated. They were doing this on a large scale and respectfully. The Soviets wanted to utilise the ground for crops but there was so much ordnance that was explosive cropping up and killing people, they couldn't persuade anyone to farm it seriously. They made an agreement to repatriate any bodies they found that could be identified with whatever nation they came from. The rest, went into mass graves. They were mostly jumbles of bones and impossible to put together into complete skeletons. They did keep all of the ID tags they could locate and send them back though. When they unearthed the bodies, many were less than a meter beneath the surface. All of their equipment was buried with them. Even the Soviet soldiers didn't loot the bodies of valuables, like wallets, medals and desperately needed boots. They may have hated them but still respected the dead. I don't know, maybe it was just superstition or maybe they hated the axis troops so much they refused to have anything to do with them.
Times were different back then. It wouldn't take a lot for things to degenerate to those levels again. Look at the underlying religious and racists ideas that exist in the world today. The middle east is just starting to boil over. Look at Canada, UK, USA, France and the rest of Europe. There are a lot of inbred antagonisms still in play just beneath the surface. Once they get a chance to be released with impunity, they will emerge with a vengeance.
One thing about those bodies, they serve as a reminder to humanity's dark side. That really bothers a lot of people. As far as I'm concerned, the dead are husks. What made them vibrant and individual, is long gone. They are past caring. That doesn't mean we should disrespect them or their sacrifices, no matter which side they were on. Lets face it, no rational man wants to go to war. Not in our society anyway. In some societies, that just isn't the case. Either that or the difference between living and dieing is nothing.
Its not just the Germans and Russians. Any nations combatants may commit atrocities during war and I'm sure throughtout history, most have at one time or another.
BTW excellent post, bearhunter.
Canada wanted to charge an RCR Captain with murder in Afganistan. 1st time in history!
What a joke! Ha ha ha ha.....
If the Canadian public really knew.
*Difference is German Gov. gave their Okay for these crimes. Allied goverments did not.
What a joke! Ha ha ha ha.....
If the Canadian public really knew.
*Difference is German Gov. gave their Okay for these crimes. Allied goverments did not.
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
From the link: "War archaeology enthusiasts comb forests and fields in search of objects of war and relics. The discoveries are often pretty spooky."
Grave robbers
Grave robbers
