Dillon 650/750 ring indexer failure

jakfrost

jakfrost

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Hi all, just in case there is any doubt about where exactly the 'weak points' are in the Dillon 650 ring indexer..here is an illustration of the last 2 that failed within 3 months of each other on my 650.
Apparently there is a vendor on Ebay who is fabricating 3D printed replicas with specifically reinforced areas of known weakness. I'm looking forward to the mailman delivering a pair sometime...soon I hope!

Cheers,
Jim
 
I have broke one of those in 15 years & close to 150k loadings on that press...and that was my fault, the handle slipped out of my hand and slammed the ram down on that ring...if youve broke two in a short while I think you need to take a look at your usage .

Edited; Just an afterthought here, you could be running with the shell plate to tight to the head and the plastic is being stressed to do it's job. That shell plate should only have "detent ball" friction holding it back, nothing from the center bolt at all.
 
fingers' advice is good. Any extra tension / resistance / torque required to rotate the plate will put extra stress on the index ring and it is a known weak point.
 
You could be correct, I had been trying to adjust the tension on the shell plate in an attempt to chase down another issue, the variance in the COAL, and even though I could easily rotate the plate by hand, it might have been just too much for the ring indexer. The shell plate obviously 'rocks', or 'pivots' at the centre point, (bolt), a small amount when the ram goes to work on the up stroke and I was trying to balance between 'too tight' and 'too loose' in order to try and reduce the variation I was getting in the COL, which, I believe is causing the sometimes high SD, (Standard Deviation) when chrono-ing for Power Factor. I use a Redding Competition Seating Die with a dedicated mandrel for the 147 FMJ FP bullets I shoot in competition, and still get anywhere from 1.124" to 1.136" when trying for 1.130". I tried the 'bearing kit' solution but that caused another issue...so back to the brass bushing and the 'wobbling' shell plate, lol.
 
I just learned to live with wild ES, SD, and COAL variations on my 9mm IPSC loads. I never determined if that was due to inconsistent CamPro bullets, poor powder choice, 650 can't load for length consistently, 650 can't throw for charge consistently, range pickup brass, or other.
 
Thanks for the feedback...appreciate it. I came to the ‘shoot and run’ game after 30 years of ISU competition...and still have a hard time dialing back the ‘precision perfect’ aspect...and being a little OCD doesn’t help, lol!
Maybe I should just put the micrometer back in its velvet case for awhile!
 
jakfrost said:
Hi all, just in case there is any doubt about where exactly the 'weak points' are in the Dillon 650 ring indexer..here is an illustration of the last 2 that failed within 3 months of each other on my 650.
Apparently there is a vendor on Ebay who is fabricating 3D printed replicas with specifically reinforced areas of known weakness. I'm looking forward to the mailman delivering a pair sometime...soon I hope!

Cheers,
Jim
Click to expand...

That index ring is meant to be a failure point. If you install something stronger, you may inadvertently cause damage to your 650/750 if it allows you to apply too much force.

I went through a process of chasing the lowest SD possible. I found the biggest factors were consistent powder throw, using the same headstamp in the test batch, weighing and sorting my bullets into groups of +/- .1gr. With that, for a 10 shot group, I was able to get an SD of 3fps and ES of 7fps.

For IPSC though, the majority of targets are within 10m and rarely beyond 25m. So, having gone through all that load development and testing, for practice ammo I load mixed brass and unsorted bullets. For match ammo, I use a single headstamp, and unsorted bullets, although at Provincial one year, I had a 147gr Campro weigh in at 142gr. I was still good at the Chrono stage as I reload to 132pf.

What I learned doing all of this did come in handy when I started doing load development for PPC. Working up loads that can group 2" at 50m took all of the above and more lol.
 
Hmmm...interesting, I just picked up a FX-9 to give PPC a go, and haven't shot it much, just enough to confirm it and the supplied mags all play well together. Seems to run fine but haven't done any testing with it, waiting for warmer weather!
 
jakfrost said:
Hmmm...interesting, I just picked up a FX-9 to give PPC a go, and haven't shot it much, just enough to confirm it and the supplied mags all play well together. Seems to run fine but haven't done any testing with it, waiting for warmer weather!
Click to expand...

PPC is Practical Police Combat. There are several divisions, but mostly people are referring to revolver division where target range out to 50m.

I've heard that the Campro 124gr HP with 4.1gr Titegroup do group extremely well at 100m from a Ruger PC9. I need to get one of those next lol
 
jakfrost said:
You could be correct, I had been trying to adjust the tension on the shell plate in an attempt to chase down another issue, the variance in the COAL, and even though I could easily rotate the plate by hand, it might have been just too much for the ring indexer. The shell plate obviously 'rocks', or 'pivots' at the centre point, (bolt), a small amount when the ram goes to work on the up stroke and I was trying to balance between 'too tight' and 'too loose' in order to try and reduce the variation I was getting in the COL, which, I believe is causing the sometimes high SD, (Standard Deviation) when chrono-ing for Power Factor. I use a Redding Competition Seating Die with a dedicated mandrel for the 147 FMJ FP bullets I shoot in competition, and still get anywhere from 1.124" to 1.136" when trying for 1.130". I tried the 'bearing kit' solution but that caused another issue...so back to the brass bushing and the 'wobbling' shell plate, lol.
Click to expand...

With no special dies or kits I get ~0.005 variance on a 650 with mixed brass and Dillon dies. The RCSD might be the problem, removing the spring might help.
 
Sorry...RCSD? Recessed Cam Spring Detent? If you are referring to the 'ball and spring' under the shell plate, I have been using the aftermarket spring and ball for years...?
I have heard there are folks out there that can claim the COL accuracy and repeatability that you are achieving...but honestly the only thing I can think of is maybe I should go back to using the Can Tire 19.95 micrometer, lol.
 
Naw...just plain ole 9mm, mixed range brass, so pretty sure it isn't on the primer side...more likely on the exit side when that ####ty little wire decided not eject the loaded round into the tray but instead put the brakes on the upstroke instantly, and just a little coaxing push on the handle...breaks the indexer ring.

Oh, and thanks for the vid, boy can I relate to that guy...EXCEPT for the fact that he gets new rings from Dillon in 3 days!!! WTF!! Here in 'never never' land, last time took me 6 weeks to get my care package. Grrrrrrrr. I have since learned to use the press by remembering to index the case plate by hand, on the DOWN stroke...slow but hey, I don't usually have enough ammo ahead to cover 6 weeks of practice drills, never mind matches in the season!!
 
Have you tried using a bearing index block from someone like this ? htt ps://entirelycrimson.com/products/index-bearing-block-for-dillon-xl-650
It makes the whole thing less bump and grind and more roll and glide. Along with a roller bearing upgrade to both under the shell plate bolt and a new case index arm with roller makes a world of difference.
 
Yes to all the above, but thanks...and yes it does make a difference. When loading 9 major ANY abrupt movement of the shell plate when indexing WILL spill powder out the top on the case, playing havoc with your standard deviation, lol!
 
Dillon will replace the ring free. The new one are a light colour not black. After replacing it with the new one, never had to change it. Lube at the proper place. No lube - grease - will break the ring.
Got maybe 85000 rounds on it since the new ring was installed and it work great. As usual got a spare now..and when you have spare parts..you end up not using them..:)

For OAL variation - when you run the full round - there is almost none. Buy if it bother you, install like I did, this :
https://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1230

Done my 500 and 650. It does not modify the press, only the tool head. It remove any play in the tool head - press relationship. You can go back to pin if you don’t like it, but I am sure anybody doing this mod, will like it.

For the powder spill in 9 major - I use the spring and ball detent mod along with those aftermarket rings that fit over the pins. But a 8.2/8.4 of 3N38 you still have to be gentle on the handle since the case is almost full. I use to put my finger on case while moving from the powder to bullet seating station, it work..:)
 
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It's very likely your bullets, if you're checking COAL instead of base to ogive length. You're probably chasing a problem that doesn't exist.

Also, like vduboy mentioned, the bearing upgrade really smooths things out. I ordered the snowshooze upgrade kit on ebay, came with the roller cam follower (Bearing for the case feed actuater dealie), the 'roto-cam' (Bearing for the shell plate index), the case feed stop switch, the primer feed stop switch, and a new ball/bushing for the shell plate index stop. Not trying to advertise for the guy, but it definitely improved the function of the press. Being able to turn off the case and primer feed is handy.
 
jakfrost said:
Sorry...RCSD? Recessed Cam Spring Detent? If you are referring to the 'ball and spring' under the shell plate, I have been using the aftermarket spring and ball for years...?
I have heard there are folks out there that can claim the COL accuracy and repeatability that you are achieving...but honestly the only thing I can think of is maybe I should go back to using the Can Tire 19.95 micrometer, lol.
Click to expand...

Redding Competition Seating Die.

Was there something wrong with the $19.95 caliper? Why would anything more be required?
 
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