Do 350 gr 0.458 bullet @ 2350 fps qualify for African.....

Forget the 350 gr and forget expanding bullets. If you're going after the big guys over there select a heavy short solid with parallel sides and a flat or hemispherical nose. Even at your pistol velocities, those will penetrate and get the job done.
 
Africa

I have used .300 Win Mag 180 nos parts @ 3200 fps and .416 Taylor with 400 gn softs and solids @ 2410 fps. .300 Wby with 200 nos part @ 3200 fps .416 Rem factory solids with 400 gn sledgehammers, .375 H+H with 270 gn TSX @ 2900 fps and .470 NE with 500 gn softs and solids @ 2160 fps.
I used the .416 Rem with the factory ammo for elephant as it was a loaner rifle. I had my family and spent a bunch of time in Europe and did NOT want to drag a rifle through 6 different countries. I highly recommend this if you are planning to do any other travel, as travelling abroad with rifles is getting more and more difficult. Having said that, if you are going to SA it's not bad just make sure you start the paper work well in advance.
Which ever caliber you choose shoot it lots,lots,lots get the feel of it and use the best bullets money can buy those critters are tough.
Last trip was to Zambia last Oct and I took 2 bull hippos, a leopard, puku and a croc, did it all with the .375 H+H and 270 gn TSX worked flawlessly.
.375 would work on elephant and has many, many times, but it would not be my first choice. Those big buggers are getting more and more aggressive as they lose more habitat and over crowding is happening. Hunting them is a lot more dangerous nowadays than it was in Bell's time or even Taylor's. The population explosion in the African countries has caused much more interaction between the population and the elephants. None of the blacks have guns so the elephant has basically become fearless of man, not just fearless but down right aggressive.
My experiences have caused me to purchase a double rifle in .470 Nitro Express and I will never again be caught in elephant country without it even if I'm only hunting plains antelopes with my .300 if there is elephants in the area I will have my .470 handy.
If elephants are on your menu buy a very big gun, that's my advice. The most popular one over there right now is the .458 Lott. A large number of PH's I've talked to use this, especially those who can't afford a double. The CZ 550 is available in this and a couple other good calibers. It ain't real pretty but it is reliable and relatively inexpensive and has been used a lot over the pond, and is used by at least 2 PH's that I know, so that is always a good indicator. These guys bet their lives and those of their clients on their rifles, so you know reliability is #1 on their minds and effectiveness is #2 and pretty comes in about #100
If finances permit you I would recommend a double in either the Heym or I have the Merkel, for the big boys in either the .470 or .500 NE. If I were to do the double again I would go for the .500 they cost the same and the .500 is a significant step up, however the .470 is the industry standard as doubles go with the PH's who have doubles.
That's my advice for what it's worth and I hope it answers your question.
There is an old saying about elephant guns "There is no gun too big for elephants but are many too small"

PS if you are for sure going to do this give me an e-mail and I can give you some names who I whole heartly recommend on everything from duiker to elephant and just about any country south of the equator in Africa. No need for you to find the crooks the hard way as I did to some degree. Always remembert not all hunting operators are equal but they are all expensive. e-mail ies@polarcom.com
 
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I do appreciate you took the time to explain this, i will read it a couple of time to make sure i understand exactly all the facts ( english is not my native language, i still miss bit and pieces sometimes ), today i was looking at rifles but now i have specials calibers to focus on... Thank you. JP.
 
Paul Jacobsen said:
No expert by any stretch...but the 458 calibers penetrated best when they were in the 1400-1600 fps range, once velocities start getting up there the bullet sheds weight too fast and lacks penetration. The 500 grain bullet is where you want to be for penetration. The 350 doesn't have the weight to give it momentum. The only reason the US military dropped the weight of the 45-70 to 400 grain bullet was that it's recoil was too stout in the light carbines the calvary used. They found the 500 grain far out penetrated anything they used.

Here is an example of penetration experienced first hand by me:

My favorite combo for N America has been a 35 Whelen with a 250 grain bullet at 2543 fps. deepest penetration I ever got was on a moose. Hit him in the right ham as he spun, bullet ranged completely through the animal and exited the sternum leaving a fist sized hole, he simply tipped over dead. Big bullets at moderate velocity penetrate. I have hunted with a lot of friends who used to make fun of my slowish bullets, until I gave an analogy. A ping pong ball and golf ball are roughly the same size. So if I drive a ping pong ball into the small of your back at 1000 fps, it's going to sting and leave red mark. If I drive a golf ball at 400 fps, it will drop you to your knees, as you blow snot bubbles out your nose. Momentum is a by product of weight.

Interesting article here.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Here is the article I was looking for, have a read VERY interesting reading of bullet weight and relative penetration. You won't believe it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html
Click to expand...

I think the 1400-1600 fps is for cast as the nose won't deform and 'expand' to slow the bullet. When using the exact same bullet, like a flat nose banded Barnes, from 1000-3000 fps the bullet with the most velocity will penetrate farthest. This is for solids only.

To prove this theory of slower penetrates better I dropped a 500gr cast bullet just missing my toes. The bullet went right through the earth to China. It took a while and it has been dropped again and will be back soon.:D
 
toebako said:
Nice pic. What is it. I do buy into the flat nose does more damage and penetrates better. Barnes made an awesome solid and went back to round because they introduced their own ammo and wanted no issues with feeding in common off the shelf guns. IMHO. It set back solid development doing this.
Click to expand...

It is Tobiko -flying fish roe.

The 330gr Banded Solid from Barnes penetrated 41" @ 1937fps and 50" @ 2281fps. So it did quite well too.


Paul Jacobsen said:
No expert by any stretch...but the 458 calibers penetrated best when they were in the 1400-1600 fps range, once velocities start getting up there the bullet sheds weight too fast and lacks penetration.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html
Click to expand...

Our own M'bogo has debunked that bit of marketing.
 
1899 said:
It is Tobiko -flying fish roe.

The 330gr Banded Solid from Barnes penetrated 41" @ 1937fps and 50" @ 2281fps. So it did quite well too.
Click to expand...

Ha! I LOL'd at that. I figured some kind of fish eggs.

Yep the Barnes were good. Some bullets penetrated poorly and some with a real similar shape did better.
 
Africa

I have read almost every book ever written on hunting in Africa and have made 6 trips personally. I have only shot 1 elephant but I have read both Taylor and Bell and Taylor says that you should have a bullet of sufficient cross section and sectional density to penetrate 4 feet. I know why he says this, an elephants skull is the size of a volkswagon bug. Taylor also says that optimum penetrtation is achieved with a bullet of stout construction (read this to mean solid) with parallel sides and a hemispherical nose at an impact velocity of no more than 2500 fps and a sectional density of no less than .330
The .460 Weatherby used to list a 500 gn bullet at 2750 fps now they list the same load at 2550 fps, the .416 Rigby which Taylor says killed all out of porportion to its caliber has aways listed a 400 gn bullet at 2400-2450. The Rigby case has always been capable of over 2600 or even 2700 fps but they knew Taylors writings to be authoritative and the fact the man killed something in excess of 200 elephants probably qualified him as an expert.
I do not claim any expertize in the field of heavy game as I have only shot 1 elephant 2 cape buff and 2 bull hippo, however this is probably 5 more animals in this class than most who will opine on this thread. I have found Taylor to be the single best authority on this topic and you will find no flaw with his writings and findings on the requirements for killing elephants.
I know many will poo-poo me for saying the .375 H+H or Ruger for that matter is not adequate for elephant, with a 300 gn solid. Understand that I am not saying it will not kill an elephant, for that matter so will a 220 gn solid in an 06 or like Bell proved for something over 100 elephants a 175 gn 7mm bullet. Now-a-days things are different, elephants are 10 times more aggressive, in optimum conditions I wouldn't think twice about potting an elephant 6" ahead of the ear hole with an 06 and a 220 gn solid. The problem comes when conditions are anything but optimum, you do not have the upper hand and things are about to get real ugly real fast, this is when you want all the thump you can dish out. Maybe you have to deal with 2 or 3 eles at once and you can't rely an your PH to save your ass, it happens. I personally do not want to be standing there with anything less than a good .416 or bigger. I want 5500 ft lbs of energy and I want good bullets of a sectional density exceeding .330. Call me crazy but I like my ass arranged just the way it is and no animal on earth is more capable of making it unrecognisable than an angry ele. I can not emphasize stong enough how dangerous these animals are. It is the only animal that walks this planet that I fear and I have shot a 10 1/2 ft polar bear at 18 mtrs with a bow, or technically an arrow.
Anyway it is truly the most fun you can have with your pants on, but for goodness sake do not under gun yourself. Worst case scenario is you don't come home second worst is you don't come home with tusks 'cause you shot and lost it. You'll still be light 10s of thousands of dollars and be very bitter.
This IS the reality of hunting eles.

Douglas
 
c-fbmi said:
I have read almost every book ever written on hunting in Africa and have made 6 trips personally. I have only shot 1 elephant but I have read both Taylor and Bell and Taylor says that you should have a bullet of sufficient cross section and sectional density to penetrate 4 feet. I know why he says this, an elephants skull is the size of a volkswagon bug. Taylor also says that optimum penetrtation is achieved with a bullet of stout construction (read this to mean solid) with parallel sides and a hemispherical nose at an impact velocity of no more than 2500 fps and a sectional density of no less than .330
The .460 Weatherby used to list a 500 gn bullet at 2750 fps now they list the same load at 2550 fps, the .416 Rigby which Taylor says killed all out of porportion to its caliber has aways listed a 400 gn bullet at 2400-2450. The Rigby case has always been capable of over 2600 or even 2700 fps but they knew Taylors writings to be authoritative and the fact the man killed something in excess of 200 elephants probably qualified him as an expert.
I do not claim any expertize in the field of heavy game as I have only shot 1 elephant 2 cape buff and 2 bull hippo, however this is probably 5 more animals in this class than most who will opine on this thread. I have found Taylor to be the single best authority on this topic and you will find no flaw with his writings and findings on the requirements for killing elephants.
I know many will poo-poo me for saying the .375 H+H or Ruger for that matter is not adequate for elephant, with a 300 gn solid. Understand that I am not saying it will not kill an elephant, for that matter so will a 220 gn solid in an 06 or like Bell proved for something over 100 elephants a 175 gn 7mm bullet. Now-a-days things are different, elephants are 10 times more aggressive, in optimum conditions I wouldn't think twice about potting an elephant 6" ahead of the ear hole with an 06 and a 220 gn solid. The problem comes when conditions are anything but optimum, you do not have the upper hand and things are about to get real ugly real fast, this is when you want all the thump you can dish out. Maybe you have to deal with 2 or 3 eles at once and you can't rely an your PH to save your ass, it happens. I personally do not want to be standing there with anything less than a good .416 or bigger. I want 5500 ft lbs of energy and I want good bullets of a sectional density exceeding .330. Call me crazy but I like my ass arranged just the way it is and no animal on earth is more capable of making it unrecognisable than an angry ele. I can not emphasize stong enough how dangerous these animals are. It is the only animal that walks this planet that I fear and I have shot a 10 1/2 ft polar bear at 18 mtrs with a bow, or technically an arrow.
Anyway it is truly the most fun you can have with your pants on, but for goodness sake do not under gun yourself. Worst case scenario is you don't come home second worst is you don't come home with tusks 'cause you shot and lost it. You'll still be light 10s of thousands of dollars and be very bitter.
This IS the reality of hunting eles.

Douglas
Click to expand...

Excellent advice Doug.

I've only made the trip once, so my experience is barely worth mentioning compared to guys like yourself and Dogleg, but some experiences we had in the Selous were quite memorable. While the buffalo hunting was thrilling, nothing could have prepared us for the reality of an elephant charge, in our case it was a juvenile. Had that little bastard run into us on the ground, rather than chased the vehicle, its hard to say how it would have come out. The Discovery Channel doesn't do justice to the reality of a belligerent elephant's display. You wouldn't believe that so much sound could come from a single animal.

We were on a 10 day license so the buff was the only dangerous game on our list, but we rubbed shoulders with lots of elephants and hippo. My wife was quite impressed when a young hippo rang along side the hunting car in the dark right beside her and she could feel its breath on her hand. I seem to recall her urging the driver to go faster. Each night we were lulled to sleep by the laughs of the hippo across the river from our camp. As long as the hippo are in a pool of water they feel pretty safe and don't pose much of a threat, but on dry land they are truly dangerous and might well be a hunter's best bang for the buck.

Looks like you could walk right across there . . .
DSC_0143.jpg

How one might encounter a lone bull hippo . . .
DSC_0116.jpg

Hippo on dry land tend to be in a hurry . . .
africa1stcd323.jpg

The camp choir . . .
hipposincamp.jpg

Elephant on a sand river . . .
Tanzania36-1.jpg

Seeing elephant up close in the tall grass was exhilarating, a legal trophy needed tusks that were 4' out of the lip, we didn't see any that qualified in this group.
africaselous117.jpg

Tanzania54.jpg
 
Boomer

Ya, in Botswana we had a cow try to climb in the truck with us and it very nearly came to terminal consequences. REAL scary, NASTY, NASTY, NASTY animals. Last hunt in Zambia nearly had to shoot a cow, weren't even hunting eles. Just another cranky ##### !!

JP
I love my Merkel shoots softs and solids, right and left, all into 2" at 50 mtrs. I hear their quality has lagged in the past year or so, you might want to look for something 2 or 3 years old. A buddy of mine has a Heym in 450 / 400 NE and it is a very well made rifle which also shoots well.
 
I did locate a Merkel 500 NE at one of the dealer, i would be surprised to find that kind of rifle in the EE, slowly i am looking around, i realise that a one of the big double if you want to achieve the Big 5 is the way to go, i did locate one CZ 416 Rigby in bolt action, single shot seem a dangerous option and a 375 Ruger seem weak after reading some articles on the subject... Cheers. JP.
 
Did locate some Sabatti Big 5 double rifles they are half the price of the Merkel, are they good or i should steer away from those... JP.
 
Another nice rifle is the Ruger RSM at ~$2000 in either .416 Rigby or .458 Lott. Chapuis and Verney-Carron also make relatively low priced double rifles, and Trade-ex stocks them both. Martini has a couple of nice Krieghoff and Heym doubles too.
 
caramel

Sabatti are notoriously light for caliber and as such are much more difficult to control as are the Kreigoff nice gun but too light for .470 or .500. I blasted trrough the Martini & Hagn site and there are 2 good buys there on .470s
A Heym for under 18K and a Merkel under 10K. there is also a gorgeous old British .470 there which if I didn't already have one I would snap up.

Douglas

Ps don't entertain any double in .470 or .500 under 10 1/2 pounds, You would be most unhappy with it !!
 
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