Do rings make a difference?

[Twan]

As a multiple season with multiple contests Match Director, I get to witness all kinds of fzck ups on the firing line. Good, bad, or Indifferent….. I get to see it all.

I’ve seen screws loosen among the rings, bases, add ons, and finally, every single point of failure imaginable on the PR rig. I get to see what works and what doesn’t work. I get to kick back and say, “Nice rig, but this ain’t gonna end well.”

I’ve seen reticles fail, adjustment knobs strip, zero settings wander, bases shake loose. If it can fail/loosen/weaken it will and it will accelerate the more I watch you fumble on my firing line. Then I end up with all sorts of anecdotal funny stories to relay on to my students at my courses. Oh my…..

Solution??

Spend your money on reputable gear, tools, rings, optics, fasteners, ammunition…. I realize everyone is likely on a budget, but if you find yourself short on money; Quit drinking and/or Quit smoking. Just don’t quit fornicating… that should be almost free ah aha ha ha ha ha. Weak attempt at humour here. Sorry, I could not resist.

I know someone out there is going to flame me since they have a tiny sense of humour, but I’m speaking from experience as a Match Director. I don’t run one match a year …. I run one or two a MONTH, plus deliver my classes.

Many new shooters choose to spend lots of $$ on the rifle or the wrong items, and I will find out sooner or later at my sessions. Save yourself the anguish. Don’t be THAT guy….

Old fashioned wisdoms like “You get what you pay for….” Kicks into high gear here.

Or

“Buy once, cry once”

Or

“Save your money”

Or

“Buy what you can afford for now , but plan on upgrading later on….”


Okay, at one point, I have to offer practical solutions instead of being such a blowhard (just ask my wife…) LOL.

Find a decent/good/respectable/ somewhat affordable brand wth a budget-corresponding/friendly price point. Do your research. Read the reviews. Attend some matches. See what people are using. Discover what the experts started out with when they were rookies, you will be surprised.

Many scope brands have good/great/ fabulous product lines at varying price points. Learn to find these price point models. See if that brand model can work for your needs in the interim as you grow your experience set. Upgrade when time/expertise/experience/budget/opportunity allow moving forward.

Let me share just ONE example. Back in my early Service Rifle days of 1989, I ran a flat top AR. Scope rings? I began using Millett Angle Loc rings because LeBaron always had them on sale in all the heights and diameters I needed. I broke a screw or 2 along the way, Mllett in California sent me several screws of varying labelled sizes. I became a fanboy. Now I had spare parts and this encouraged me to run their AngleLoc rings in my SR AR15, then my Precision Rifle, and also my groundhog hunting rifle.

I won several gold medals along the way. I worked a part time job at the Ski Hill and was able to save up for Leupold Mark4 rings over the next few years. Then my work with 2PPCLI Sniper dets had me looking at TPS Rings from Brownells. The decades rolled by and several sponsors later, I’ve recommended many of my clients towards the MDT Premier Scope Ring line because of their price points, quality control, spare parts availability, and Marten Van Ruitenberg kindly sponsors my Junior Program kids with chamber flags.

I’ve sent many clients over to Vortex rings with fantastic success, and Burris, and Leupold, and Warne, and Talley. The list goes on and on. Same advice can apply for optics brands.

Many of my shooting clients and contacts in Garrison Petawawa have multiple deployments. I’ve since modified my advice to :

“Would you take this gear overseas???”

That’s my latest acid (Metaphor warning) test to several of my clients these days. Find what works for you and your game, budget, comfort level, price point, research, LCF (looks cool factor) and then do your research. Save up some money by avoiding vices, then “Buy once, cry once!”

It’s worked for me for over 40 years. I am very blessed….


This is a great and helpful community with tonnes of experience and advice. Thank you for all you support over the decades!!


Peace Be The Journey!

Cheers, Barney

Barney is a good dude, and speaks a lot truth.

You should not need to lap, or even worry about lapping rings if you purchase a good set. Purely personal, but I prefer a 1pc mount over rings for range, precision shooting or matches. They tend to provide significantly superior rigidity to the scope when mounted, and you're less likely to have any sort of ring misalignment compared to a 2pc ring set (I'm overstating the possible problem of ring misalignment, but it is possible.).

As others have said, a good torque wrench, or even a simple Fixit Stick torque limiter will be your friend - that way you know for sure your ring caps are properly torqued as per the scope AND mount manufacturer. Torquing the ring screws down in the correct method (like installing a car tire) is important as well, along with making sure that the gap on either side of the ring and the base of the ring/mount is the same -- otherwise you can twist the scope tube left and right as you tighten the rings.

Pick a reputable mount manufacturer (MDT is excellent, I happen to use ZroDelta) and you'll be very happy knowing your mount is not going to cause possible problems down the line - lord knows you can chase your self in circles when a mount loosens and you don't notice it.

 

[Potashminer]

"need to lap" - several posts above have mentioned that the receiver that the rings gets attached to, might be suspect. $400 rings on a crookedly ground receiver will still be crooked, no matter how precisely the ring maker did his job. I might do it wrong, but I do use the lapping bar on most every installation - say, more than 15 or so of my own rifles and scopes - the lapping is initially done lightly - as a check - as much an exercise to prove to myself that the bottom halves actually are true to each other - I do not know any other way to know that.

Multiple rifles here have shims under one or other base, even with one piece bases - to correct gross errors, revealed by the test lapping. Evidence is that you can not depend on the receiver grinder guy, the base maker guy and the ring maker guy to have all hit perfectly "0" tolerance. Sooner or later, the very "best stuff" will not all line up - all is made to plus / minus tolerances - sooner or later the tolerances stack up against you. About the only exception is those Burris rings with the plastic inserts - I have never lapped them, nor do I know how to. Is "eye-opening" to measure a one piece base as it twists and warps, as its mounting screws are tightened - to conform to the mis-ground receiver.

 

[mikeyb]

I would run MDT rings on everything if I could, same with rails. But I need then to make some 0 MOA rails!

That said, I have MDT, Warne, TPS, Talley, Weaver, and Leupold on my rifles. Weaver Grand Slams are my "starting point", I like Talley's for hunting rifles, and MDT for my long range stuff.

 

[Hungry]

I would run MDT rings on everything if I could, same with rails. But I need then to make some 0 MOA rails!

That said, I have MDT, Warne, TPS, Talley, Weaver, and Leupold on my rifles. Weaver Grand Slams are my "starting point", I like Talley's for hunting rifles, and MDT for my long range stuff.

And that’s what I’m yakking about.

Find what works for you and your price point, then run with it (win gold medals and/or drop game meat ). The bottom line is that YOU (and only YOU) have to trust those rings are going to get the job done through thick and thin.

You have got to have the confidence. More anecdotal story….. Back in 2000 at the DCRA’s NSCC National Matches, I would find myself among 400 plus Military and Police Service Rifle shooters. It seems I was the ONLY civilian shooting on the line. Remember we would have up to 76 targets across the Connaught Charlie Range with FOUR relays on the go. I was the ONLY non-uniform guy anywhere I could see, maybe…It’s a huge field of competitors. BUT, I am a Dirty Patricia (1 PPCLI) and Nothing scares me anymore!! I am the ugliest and meanest bastard out there!

All I could afford to shoot was a used Olympic Arms .223 with a 9” twist barrel and my Sierra MK 69 grainers. I could not find an affordable optic for SR shooting since ELCAN Scopes ran a bit over $1000. So all I could find was a used ($500 on the CGN EE Forum) Leupold VariX III 3.5-10-40mm with a Duplex reticle and target turrets. Enter the Millett Angle Loc rings from LeBaron in North York, ON or Markham, ON. They had a few sizes in 1” diameter but medium and high heights. I bought both pairs for $30 each and brought them home. More spare parts should I break something along the way.

The High Rings got the job done for the cheek weld on the flat top AR. Everyone else ran ELCAN scopes that had the correct height on their C7A1 rigs. I had to struggle all on my own. I am better for that experience.

Long story short, I was on my own and kept my focus in check throughout the 5 days of National Matches (shot PR matches also) and I found myself on the podium several times. The Millett AngleLoc rings worked for me and I continued to use them on my AR rigs for the next few years. After decades of competition, some of these NSCC medals remain in my personal collection…. The rest or the following sets of medals I’ve won are always returned (lack of storage space in my retirement digs).


Let’s see if I can get my latest/ most recent coyote hunting rig picture here…. Winnie Model 70 Fwt Compact .243 in a B&C hunter profile. Glass is a Bushy HDMR2 (didn’t I just speak about confidence inspiring?) mounted with MDT Premier Rings 34mm LOW…

Like I said…. It’s got to give you the confidence to work/play to the next level. Or in my case with my TWO hip replacements; maintain a zero when I’m always falling over logs in the bush. Ha hah aha Don’t get old!!







Ensure the rings you employ give you the confidence boost when you are all alone and have to face the “Wall of Intimidation”. They have to work and inspire you when you are : wet, cold, tired, pissed off, muddy, cantankerous, and far from home.

Buy what works for you and all the other factors that the internet trolls cannot see. In the end, it’s you that has got to get the job done!!



Peace Be The Journey!

Cheers, Barney

 

[dan belisle]

I think weaver is getting a bad rap in this thread. I recall using the steel weaver clamp style 1 inch rings on an 8 Rem Mag about 40 Yeats back. Those rings stayed on that rifle and never shifted for around 20 years. All my other experiences with those style of weaver rings were similar. - dan

 

[kthomas]

Not all rings are made equal.

Most rings these days are pretty good though, as long as you avoid the knock-off Chinese crap that's on the market. Apparently vertical split rings generate more issues then traditional horizontal rings, I would personally avoid those. Otherwise, pick a quality set of rings with the features you want, in your price point.

My personal favorite is ARC rings. Very well made, the clamshell design is clever, and dealing with one bolt rather then 4-6 per ring makes for a much easier mounting experience.

 

[seamusm]

Wow! that got a lot of responses. Thanks for the help and knowledge. I guess I'll stick with MDT. I like buying Canadian and I don't mind spending the money if I'm getting a quality product.

 

[Marcos]

A very nice feature of MDT rings is that they are designed to be tightened all the way on one side of the caps, then you only torque the other side. I have the Elite rings mounted on a MDT rail and am very happy with the kit! Their premier series is a real bargain; you keep the design of torquing only one side. I am curious to try Warne Maxima vertical split on my next hunting rifle mostly for the looks, but if unhappy will go with the MDT Premier. Overall there is a point of diminishing return eventually, but about 100$ for a set of quality scope rings seems reasonable to me for average use if you use a decent optic. You also need a quality base to match.

 

[Maple57]

Scope rings are structural in nature but there's a ton of elitism created by the marketing staff for such items that I hope you don't fall for.

If you examine the design of various sets of scope rings you are likely to find things that are obviously inappropriate, others are mechanically sound. Just apply common sense. Even some of the more expensive brands are not impervious to design stupidity.

I have rifles fitted with cheap Chinese scope rings and others fitted with more expensive brands... I have found no accuracy difference between any of them. Sure I like the better brands, but I do not believe that work any better.

I would say that if you can easily afford premium rings, go ahead and buy the best brands, but if you are looking to save money, scope rings are about the best place to do it. I do not believe that anyone will ever find an accuracy difference between a $30 set of scope rings and a $400 set. Yes the $400 set are nicely made, but at the end of the day, will not add 0.001" of accuracy.

 

[anchor3593]

I'm not an expert, but I have noticed a few things.

Over-torquing is sure abusive of good scopes.
Lapping loosens the fit a bit, so allowing egging of the tube.
Hard kicking calibers often skid the scope.
Loosened screws are likely not because they are loosening, but because things are settling in - maybe rings turning or egging the tube or cutting into the tube.

To solve these issues, a little more care in the mounting of the rings is important - get them straight and true - use your solid lapping bar to check for straight.
Never use Locktite on the screws of course, but put a drop on the bottom of the ring to set the scope into - this adheres the scope to the ring and stops any skidding - so now the screws can be lightly tightened, and left overnight until the Locktite is hard before torquing. The cap likely needs no Locktite - they will settle into perfect alignment and keep the scope well clamped into the perfect bed.
When the scope is taken off again, the Locktite is easy to take off with a fingernail and leaves the scope looking new - with no skid marks or egging.
The rings are still uncut by lapping, so can be switched to another rifle.

(And shoot a smaller caliber - they are so much easier on everything.)

 

[beltfed]

I'll echo Rugbydave's and Hungry's comments above.

I've never lapped a set of quality rings, and if you incrementally tighten the scope into a set of rings, you won't get marring either.
Come to think of it, I wouldn't own a set of rings that required lapping in the first place.

I've used zee rings, but never to gain cant and elevation back in the elevation turret - for that I'd recommend getting the appropriate base.
A quality base is just as important as quality rings as well, imho.

 

[njlondon]

Not all rings are made equal.

Most rings these days are pretty good though, as long as you avoid the knock-off Chinese crap that's on the market. Apparently vertical split rings generate more issues then traditional horizontal rings, I would personally avoid those. Otherwise, pick a quality set of rings with the features you want, in your price point.

My personal favorite is ARC rings. Very well made, the clamshell design is clever, and dealing with one bolt rather then 4-6 per ring makes for a much easier mounting experience.

Where can these be purchased in Canada?

 

[Mik123]

Go Big Tactical sells them

 

[Cpt.Flan]

As a multiple season with multiple contests Match Director, I get to witness all kinds of fzck ups on the firing line. Good, bad, or Indifferent….. I get to see it all.

I’ve seen screws loosen among the rings, bases, add ons, and finally, every single point of failure imaginable on the PR rig. I get to see what works and what doesn’t work. I get to kick back and say, “Nice rig, but this ain’t gonna end well.”

I’ve seen reticles fail, adjustment knobs strip, zero settings wander, bases shake loose. If it can fail/loosen/weaken it will and it will accelerate the more I watch you fumble on my firing line. Then I end up with all sorts of anecdotal funny stories to relay on to my students at my courses. Oh my…..

Solution??

Spend your money on reputable gear, tools, rings, optics, fasteners, ammunition…. I realize everyone is likely on a budget, but if you find yourself short on money; Quit drinking and/or Quit smoking. Just don’t quit fornicating… that should be almost free ah aha ha ha ha ha. Weak attempt at humour here. Sorry, I could not resist.

I know someone out there is going to flame me since they have a tiny sense of humour, but I’m speaking from experience as a Match Director. I don’t run one match a year …. I run one or two a MONTH, plus deliver my classes.

Many new shooters choose to spend lots of $$ on the rifle or the wrong items, and I will find out sooner or later at my sessions. Save yourself the anguish. Don’t be THAT guy….

Old fashioned wisdoms like “You get what you pay for….” Kicks into high gear here.

Or

“Buy once, cry once”

Or

“Save your money”

Or

“Buy what you can afford for now , but plan on upgrading later on….”


Okay, at one point, I have to offer practical solutions instead of being such a blowhard (just ask my wife…) LOL.

Find a decent/good/respectable/ somewhat affordable brand wth a budget-corresponding/friendly price point. Do your research. Read the reviews. Attend some matches. See what people are using. Discover what the experts started out with when they were rookies, you will be surprised.

Many scope brands have good/great/ fabulous product lines at varying price points. Learn to find these price point models. See if that brand model can work for your needs in the interim as you grow your experience set. Upgrade when time/expertise/experience/budget/opportunity allow moving forward.

Let me share just ONE example. Back in my early Service Rifle days of 1989, I ran a flat top AR. Scope rings? I began using Millett Angle Loc rings because LeBaron always had them on sale in all the heights and diameters I needed. I broke a screw or 2 along the way, Mllett in California sent me several screws of varying labelled sizes. I became a fanboy. Now I had spare parts and this encouraged me to run their AngleLoc rings in my SR AR15, then my Precision Rifle, and also my groundhog hunting rifle.

I won several gold medals along the way. I worked a part time job at the Ski Hill and was able to save up for Leupold Mark4 rings over the next few years. Then my work with 2PPCLI Sniper dets had me looking at TPS Rings from Brownells. The decades rolled by and several sponsors later, I’ve recommended many of my clients towards the MDT Premier Scope Ring line because of their price points, quality control, spare parts availability, and Marten Van Ruitenberg kindly sponsors my Junior Program kids with chamber flags.

I’ve sent many clients over to Vortex rings with fantastic success, and Burris, and Leupold, and Warne, and Talley. The list goes on and on. Same advice can apply for optics brands.

Many of my shooting clients and contacts in Garrison Petawawa have multiple deployments. I’ve since modified my advice to :

“Would you take this gear overseas???”

That’s my latest acid (Metaphor warning) test to several of my clients these days. Find what works for you and your game, budget, comfort level, price point, research, LCF (looks cool factor) and then do your research. Save up some money by avoiding vices, then “Buy once, cry once!”

It’s worked for me for over 40 years. I am very blessed….


This is a great and helpful community with tonnes of experience and advice. Thank you for all you support over the decades!!


Peace Be The Journey!

Cheers, Barney

Barney is right.

I am an instructor as well. MIL and in a civilian shooting school.

I see from times to times people coming in with an ebay bipod, rings etc.
They enjoy shooting till lunch usually. After that when we get to serious stuff... Their morale usually goes south. And they tend to realise how limited the gear is.

After a course they almost ALL go back and then spend the right money on quality parts.

So I would say this. If you have to wait another month or two to get the money to buy a good set of rings for example. Do it.
Anyways it's not like your gun safe will see the difference...

But we do. And you also will after a short period.

I never had to lap a decent pair of rings.
Never had a scope slip.
Never had anyting come loose. And I don't use loctite on rings.

 

[jetfixer]

Does anyone here find the rings they mount their scopes in makes a difference?

My thinking is as long as I'm mounting my scope in 4 or 6 screw rings, not cheap rings off amazon, they're all pretty much all the same. Am I really getting more going from a $60 Weaver set to a $250+ set?

I'm asking because I'm putting together a new 308 rig. I'm not oppose to spending big money on the rings if they make a difference. I can always mount them on my next rig if I upgrade.

P.S. I know this could be the wrong forum, maybe optic, but I want to ask LR shooters, not hunters.

In a word: Yes

Lots of decend tips on here - my experience is that I prefer a one piece rail base (two piece mounts tend reveal any base hole alignment issues) and I use a scope ring alignment tool before I put the scope in the rings. In the past I have honed rings, however I have not done so in over 4 years as I have switched to MDT rings which has resulted in consistent ring alignment being achieved either out of the box or with a re-torque of the mounting screws (if there are two base screws the torque should be applied incrementaly and evenly in order to avoid alignment yaw). I used Burris rings with inserts many years ago on my Anschutz 64 .22LR and they worked very well on that platform. Be aware that the insert material has a finite life and will leach out the chemical flexibility properties over time and need replacing, something I have experienced.

Basically: 1 piece quality base, quality rings, precise mounting (alignment, leveling and torque values) = properly mounted scope that will hold zero.

Enjoy your build!