How the hell else will you make a first shot kill on anything? ANYTHING!!!! If you're hunting you had better be able to shoot offhand. It's mostly what I shoot. I'll put the gun on a bench to sight it in. Then it's mostly offhand very rarely prone.
Do you consider this doable?
- Thread starter Lefty Dick
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
5 shots in 8" is certainly doable, but what is the purpose of the long shot string other than over heating your barrel? Under field conditions you might get 2 or 3, but 5 would be the exception to the rule.
Practical shooting should have some bench marks associated with it so that you have something against which to measure your progress. Jeff Cooper wrote that he considered Stewart Edward White to be the finest practical rifle shot he had ever been aware of, being able to place his shots within 2 MOA with his iron sighted .30/06 1903 Springfield regardless of position or state of exertion. That is pretty impressive, and sets the bar very high.
A drill I prefer to run is firing 2 shots as quickly as I can from each position, starting with off hand without support, then kneeling, sitting, and ending with prone, slung-up from each rested position. This brings up an interesting point, and one that is not shared by many other knowledgeable folks; that is I have not seen any advantage on paper by slinging up for off hand, the sling I believe is only a benefit when used from a rested position. Off-hand presents more of a timing problem than a holding problem. If you tense your stomach muscles the moment before breaking the shot, the sights momentarily go solid. If you can arrange for the sight to be covering the target at that moment, your shot will be good, but this requires a knowledge of how to find and check your natural point of aim.
Each stage is started from standing, requiring the shooter to fall into position, acquire the target, and fire 2 rounds as quickly as possible. Depending on your rifle it may require a reload part way through, and a reload adds an interesting wrinkle to the test. The best I've done on this 2-shot per position drill from 100 yards is 2" for 8 shots, but I doubt I can do it on demand and I certainly cannot do it winded. Only what you can do on demand under the conditions of the moment determines your prowess as a marksman.
If you think you are good enough, back up 30 yards or so, run as hard as you can to the firing line, drop into position, then shoot the drill against the clock. The more inconveniences you can put in the way of your shooting, the more it will reflect your prowess in the field.
Practical shooting should have some bench marks associated with it so that you have something against which to measure your progress. Jeff Cooper wrote that he considered Stewart Edward White to be the finest practical rifle shot he had ever been aware of, being able to place his shots within 2 MOA with his iron sighted .30/06 1903 Springfield regardless of position or state of exertion. That is pretty impressive, and sets the bar very high.
A drill I prefer to run is firing 2 shots as quickly as I can from each position, starting with off hand without support, then kneeling, sitting, and ending with prone, slung-up from each rested position. This brings up an interesting point, and one that is not shared by many other knowledgeable folks; that is I have not seen any advantage on paper by slinging up for off hand, the sling I believe is only a benefit when used from a rested position. Off-hand presents more of a timing problem than a holding problem. If you tense your stomach muscles the moment before breaking the shot, the sights momentarily go solid. If you can arrange for the sight to be covering the target at that moment, your shot will be good, but this requires a knowledge of how to find and check your natural point of aim.
Each stage is started from standing, requiring the shooter to fall into position, acquire the target, and fire 2 rounds as quickly as possible. Depending on your rifle it may require a reload part way through, and a reload adds an interesting wrinkle to the test. The best I've done on this 2-shot per position drill from 100 yards is 2" for 8 shots, but I doubt I can do it on demand and I certainly cannot do it winded. Only what you can do on demand under the conditions of the moment determines your prowess as a marksman.
If you think you are good enough, back up 30 yards or so, run as hard as you can to the firing line, drop into position, then shoot the drill against the clock. The more inconveniences you can put in the way of your shooting, the more it will reflect your prowess in the field.
The idea of 5 shots is to see if you can do it consistnatly.
You know if a guy waits the heated up barrel is'nt an issue, shoot wait 30 sec, shoot wait a minute, shoot wait a minute, shoot wait 2 minutes, shoot.
That's a wopping 4.5 minutes.
Not only is it doable, but I would consider the ability to consistently make hits in an 8" circle offhand at 100 yards as a measure of acceptable field marksmanship.
I agree that a 5 shot string isn't necessarily required, but you should be able to mount the rifle to your shoulder and make the shot every time. I would consider the use of the "hasty sling" position to be acceptable for this sort of thing, but I don't think anybody is going to take up a deliberate sling position (as with an M1907 style military sling) for a 100 yard offhand shot.
The benchrest is for zeroing your rifle and load development. Practicing position shooting is where the rubber really hits the road on your way to becoming a rifleman. It is a shame that there are many ranges that permit only bench shooting, as this limits their utility to a considerable extent.
I agree that a 5 shot string isn't necessarily required, but you should be able to mount the rifle to your shoulder and make the shot every time. I would consider the use of the "hasty sling" position to be acceptable for this sort of thing, but I don't think anybody is going to take up a deliberate sling position (as with an M1907 style military sling) for a 100 yard offhand shot.
The benchrest is for zeroing your rifle and load development. Practicing position shooting is where the rubber really hits the road on your way to becoming a rifleman. It is a shame that there are many ranges that permit only bench shooting, as this limits their utility to a considerable extent.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The idea of 5 shots is to see if you can do it consistnatly.
You know if a guy waits the heated up barrel is'nt an issue, shoot wait 30 sec, shoot wait a minute, shoot wait a minute, shoot wait 2 minutes, shoot.
That's a wopping 4.5 minutes.
Agreed, but the drills you run should be directed toward a practical end. Rapidly firing two or three rounds off hand will not only prove consistency but will improve consistency in a practical format. Shooting long strings often causes the shooter to slow down and take more time aiming than he should. Increasing the time required to reacquire the target, aim, and break the shot is counterproductive. As an example, if I fire an entire magazine of ammo from my .45 auto at a single bullseye target, I become so focused on the sight alignment that I loose focus towards the practical aspect of what it is I'm attempting to do. But if I concentrate on putting 2 rounds each on a number or silhouette targets with no distinct aiming points, my speed stays up, and I loose little if anything in my attention to the front sight, so the two shots are seldom far apart. So it is rifle practical rifle shooting.
First set a benchmark goal, then train to achieve or surpass it. I have been attempting to make 2 shots within 2 MOA on demand for some time, and I'm still not there, but it gives me a goal to strive towards, and I've only been at this for 40 years. I anticipate being at it for some time to come.
It is rare to get a bipod shot on game. At least anywhere that I hunt. There is usually bushes, or grass in the way. Don't get me wrong, get the most stable position you can, just don't assume that the shot will come from a stable position.
This year, I ended up with a pretty good knot of twisted arms, legs, and torso but I only had a quick shot, and the sights locked up, so, bang flop.
I'd go further to say that benches are only for load development. Put the rifle on a front/rear sandbag, and try a few things until it comfortably outshoots you, then toss the bags/bipod.
My hunting load is the hardest hitting load that I can safely load that still shoots about .75 of my best field position -- prone off elbows.
i get sub moa with my sks at 500 meters with irons.
rofl
I <could> do it, if I practiced every week for a few months with iron sights and sent a couple hundred rounds downrange .... Could <probably> do it right now with a good rifle and low powered optics. Iron sights right now : not a chance in hell.
In fact if such a test was ever to be implemented as part of the hunter's safety course or as a yearly requirement to obtain a hunting license, I would hazard a guess that upwards of 90% would fail.
In fact if such a test was ever to be implemented as part of the hunter's safety course or as a yearly requirement to obtain a hunting license, I would hazard a guess that upwards of 90% would fail.
That's going to depend on where you live or how you hunt. This year, between my 14 year old son and I we shot 9 BG animals from prone bipods, one from prone no bipod and 8 from assorted improvised positions. Nothing offhand, and nothing running. The bipod opportunities happen a lot more when you plan for them. If you don't, then you get to shoot grass.
blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- A blue part of Ontario
Ummmm yes?
I believe it was field and stream that said the "Gold Standard" which every hunter should strive for is 3 shots offhand in a dinner plate at 100 yards in less then a minute.
I believe it was field and stream that said the "Gold Standard" which every hunter should strive for is 3 shots offhand in a dinner plate at 100 yards in less then a minute.
That's going to depend on where you live or how you hunt. This year, between my 14 year old son and I we shot 9 BG animals from prone bipods, one from prone no bipod and 8 from assorted improvised positions. Nothing offhand, and nothing running. The bipod opportunities happen a lot more when you plan for them. If you don't, then you get to shoot grass.
Oh, for sure. If you plan for them, or hunt from a stand, a bipod can work. Use whatever is most stable that you can get. I find I even use my shooting sticks more then a bipod though.
What do you mean by assorted improvised positions that are prone with a bipod though? Or am I misreading that, and 1 was from prone with a bipod, and 8 from positions without using the pod?
westcoaster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central BC
IMO this is a practice thing, keep trying and you will get it.
And yes, at the range I dedicate at least two magazines every time I go to this, usually one at 100 and one at 200. When I first tried it was humbling, now I generally hit all the time - although I would not guarantee 5 for 5.
I am gonna say if you Can't do this, you should not be hunting big game until you can IMHO. I was in Cadets for 4 years. In 1994 I got top cadet in the platoon and company at Vernon Army cadet camp. A big reason for this was I put a 8 inch group in the black at 300 yards with an open sight (albeit in the prone position)FN C1 A1. The RSO held me back that day and tried to talk me into joining the reg force (It didn't work LOL). It's all about technique and most importantly breathing. Every Big game animal I have ever taken was from the standing position. With the exception of 1. I had to run up a hill to take a shot and was out of breath so I shot that bull off my knee. He didn't know the difference
Yea I did that and its not hard either... 30-06 autoloader with a scope.
Probably could do it faster with irons
Probably could do it faster with irons
