Documented Cases of Gun "Blow-ups"

Andy

Andy

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Here's a challenge. In years of perusing various gun forums I have seen dozens (perhaps 100's) of posts referring to milsurp guns from "the dangerous list" (e.g. anything Italian, Spanish, etc.) blowing up, and being UNSAFE TO SHOOT. Unless a bore obstruction, every case I've heard was from a friend of a retired gunsmith who years ago... You know the routine.

Can anyone present a single documented case of a milsurp gun "blowing up" (feel free to use your own definition of blown up)? By documented I mean first-hand viewing of the pieces, and first-hand proof that it wasn't due to a bore obstruction, which would damage any gun. Pics and information on the suspected cause is of course of interest.
 
I saw a Llungman that blew up. It was shredded up pretty good. Blew into the magazine. Tore the stock and receiver up. Shooter was okay. They used to teach a gunsmithing course at Red River Community college and the instructor was a guy named Ralph Olsen (I think). I saw the kabloomed Llungman at his place. I think he said the cause was a reload with a slow burning powder. I can't call him back and get specifics, the old guy died two years ago.
 
Deano said:
I saw a Llungman that blew up. It was shredded up pretty good. Blew into the magazine. Tore the stock and receiver up. Shooter was okay. They used to teach a gunsmithing course at Red River Community college and the instructor was a guy named Ralph Olsen (I think). I saw the kabloomed Llungman at his place. I think he said the cause was a reload with a slow burning powder. I can't call him back and get specifics, the old guy died two years ago.
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You're just the messenger, but I call this a classic case of an undocumented blowup that leads to guns being placed unfairly on the "Unsafe List". Never before heard that about the Llungman.

In fact, if what you said is correct, it could actually be a case of an effective bore obstruction. Too little of too slow a powder and you get a secondary pressure curve - bullet moves a bit down the barrel, then the big push comes. Or, a round goes "pop", never leaves the barrel, then the bonehead at the other end of the muzzle puts another round down the pipe - again, a bore obstruction. Not the gun's design at fault in those cases.
 
I've seen a Colt New Service that blew up completely in .455 cal. Suspected cause was a double-charge. Ammo was OOOOLD factory Dominion that was somewhat corroded up. I wasn't there when it happened but saw the gun and ammo the day after.

I saw a Ruger MkII target blow up with Winchester wildcat factory ammo. No bore obstruction - went K-B on the first shot the guy took that day. Not second hand either - happened right next to me at EOHC 5 years ago.

I saw an Iver Johnson M1 carbine blow up, bulged the side of the receiver, dumped the mag onto the ground and the crappy stamped slide arm flew past the shooter's head and off into a field. I don't blame the milsurp ammo - just the IJ made gun which I DO consider an unsafe POS. Only thing milsurp on this one might have been the sights though - reast was cheaply cast or stamped.

I saw a DPMS AR15 bolt shear off half the locking lugs once too. No idea what caused it - maybe improper heat treating? Ammo was hirtenberger milsurp. The rest of if shot fine, so I doubt it was an ammo issue. Luckily half the lugs held an no-one was hurt.

I have seen a MATCHING Ishapore made SMLE with headspace so bad that every shot completely ruptured the head with every shot and would likely blind the shooter if not for safety glasses. I suppose someone could have swapped the bolt head, but it too was Ishy proofed so who knows? Ishies are hardly indicative of overall Enfield quality though.

Saw a Savage 110 .300 RUM that after the first shot of factory ammo, the bolt could no longer be opened. Suspect bolt setback, but I never saw the guy after it happened to ask him what it ended up being that caused it to lock up like that.

That's it for stuff I've seen first hand though.

Oops! Almost forgot! Saw a Glock .40 blow up, cracked the frame and slide. We think it was b/c the dumbass was shooting cast lead in it which you aren;t supposed to do in polygonal rifled guns.
 
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EDIT TO ADD: Never saw a real milsurp RIFLE actually go K-B yet though. Just clones thereof. Only milsurp I know of that blew up for a not definitely documentable reason is the Colt mentioned above.
 
I once saw a FN that had blow out the bottom of the receiver and the mag well. I heard the guy shooting was ok but what an experience it must have been.
 
Both of the Ackley 'handbook for shooters and reloaders' vol. I and II have dozens (if not hundreds) of documented cases. Vol. I also has the (in)famous intentional KB experiments he ran on a wide variety of surplus rifles, to establish the relative strength of each action. The arisaka was one of the top performers, but he was able to get everything else to KB just by adding more powder.
 
Andy said:
You're just the messenger, but I call this a classic case of an undocumented blowup that leads to guns being placed unfairly on the "Unsafe List". Never before heard that about the Llungman.

In fact, if what you said is correct, it could actually be a case of an effective bore obstruction. Too little of too slow a powder and you get a secondary pressure curve - bullet moves a bit down the barrel, then the big push comes. Or, a round goes "pop", never leaves the barrel, then the bonehead at the other end of the muzzle puts another round down the pipe - again, a bore obstruction. Not the gun's design at fault in those cases.
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Well, you asked if I had seen the blow up, and I admit, I was not at the range and did not witness the blow up. However, I did meet your requirement of "seeing", first hand, the actual peice. I held it in my hand. As I mentioned, I cannot verify, as the fellow is deceased. I posted his name in the hope that there is someone on this board who knew him, or took his course at Red River, and perhaps they could shed a bit more light.
 
Never seen a problem with Mil-Surplus rifles thats why I'm interested in them ;)

You just got to know what to feed it and you should be fine, for M1 Garands you dont want to bend the oprod for example so you should stick to the recommended loads. And this goes for any Semi-automatic almost as they were ment to be used with certian powders and certian bullets not what ever was going to be reloaded in the future to be used in it :)

Bolt actions I dont see how you can blow one up for the most part any more differently then a commerical rifle as most comercial rifles have there heritage in a millitary rifle. Winchester and other Generic Push Feeds = Mauser actions, Remington M700's if you go far back enough (I think 3 generations) would go to to the P14/P17 Rifles. :D

If you really want a rifle to keep on going get a M1 Garand, they were proofed at 120,000PSI broke part of the bolt (the bolt lugs or Roller cant remember but can look it up) with this load in testing and still managed to fire 5,000 rounds of service ammo. :)

PS, Ackley doesnt count. He was trying to blow them up on purpose, :eek:

Dimitri
 
Sorry to correct you, but winchester's model 70 was based on a controlled feed Mauser 98 style action until 1964. then in 2002 or thereabouts they reverted back to control feed.

Remington is pure push-feed ala Mauser 91 and company. It does not have a big extractor claw and ejects with a plunger in the bolt face.

the P14 and M1917 has more in common with a Mauser 96 action than a Remington.

M1's don't have a bolt roller either - only M14's do.
 
Claven2 said:
I've seen a Colt New Service that blew up completely in .455 cal.
...
I saw a Ruger MkII target blow up with Winchester wildcat factory ammo
...
I saw an Iver Johnson M1 carbine blow up
...
I saw a DPMS AR15 bolt shear off half the locking lugs once too
...
I have seen a MATCHING Ishapore made SMLE with headspace so bad that every shot completely ruptured the head
...
Saw a Savage 110 .300 RUM that after the first shot of factory ammo, the bolt could no longer be opened
...
Oops! Almost forgot! Saw a Glock .40 blow up
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Note to self: only shoot when far from Claven2, he brings bad luck ;)








No offense Claven2, I am just kidding; but man, what are the odds of being around so many KBs? :rolleyes:
 
Claven,

You are right I made a mistake Should have said controlled round feed. :redface:

Winchester and other Generic Control round Feeds = Mauser actions
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This is a neat link to the pushfeed, control feed debate though:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13813

Your also right about the roller, In my definance I never held/learnt much about the M1 Garand :p

Here is a quote from Hatcher's notebook detailing John Garand's testing. "In trying to determine the ultimate strength of the gun, Mr. Garand built up progressively higher proof loads in increments of 5,000 lbs. pressure, from the regular proof load of 70,000 lbs. to the extreme figure of 120,000 lbs. per square inch. At this later figure, cracked left lugs on the bolt began to be encountered. A gun in which the bolt had the left lug cracked by one of these excessive high pressure overloads was then fired an endurance test of 5,000 rounds of service ammunition, using the cracked bolt, which showed no further deterioration.
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Dimitri
 
Proutfoo said:
Note to self: only shoot when far from Claven2, he brings bad luck ;)








No offense Claven2, I am just kidding; but man, what are the odds of being around so many KBs? :rolleyes:
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LOL, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking:D:D:D
 
Saw a few of the C-7s in blown up state early in their service. It was actually a fairly regular occurance around spring of 88. The plastic mags actually acted as a bit of a safety fuse; they would blow out the bottom and the damage was usually limited to the upper. I did see one where the guy managed to get a hold of US military steel mags, and it caused a fair bit more damage. And of course the guy was a left hander, so he caught even more of the shrapnel out the ejection port than usual. The officer running the range was so mad he refused to continue with the qualifications. There was great debate in those early days whether it was the ammo or the rifles fault. They later serialised all the bolts to their specific rifles, although that has since gone by the wayside. The general consensous back then was that it was the fault of the Cdn ammo as the European stuff we were also using had not had the same trouble.
During that RV, there was an American doctor attached to the scheme which was handy as he had dealt with shrapnel wounds in Grenada. Canadian military doctors at the time were much less likely to run in to actual battlefield injuries.
 
Years ago I was shooting next to a Ljungman that blew back. The bolt and carrier were jammed open and the mag damaged- a real mess. The shooter was shaken but not injured. The rifle blew on the second shot of what was to be a five shot string using handloads. On a hunch I loaded two rounds in my own Ljungman, cycled and fired one. I unloaded the second round and found a light but distinct firing pin impression on the primer. Wondered if a floatng firingpin could somehow fire a soft primer before lock up completed.
 
While on the subject, not a milsurp, but I was in a hardware store in St. Johns Quebec where on display was a nice 1886 Winchester 45/70 missing the top half of the chamber and about 4 inches of barrel. Apparently a novice handloader used a full charge of Bullseye. The action was distorted but held. Shooter condition unknown.
 
I have a friend in the US who blew up a Bushmaster AR using Federal ammo and he is unsure of the cause, not blaming the rifle anyway.

It did just what Stencollector said, the mag blew it's contents all over but no shrapnel created, it really vented a lot of pressure safely though.
 
Oldroscoe said:
I unloaded the second round and found a light but distinct firing pin impression on the primer. Wondered if a floatng firingpin could somehow fire a soft primer before lock up completed.
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Interesting that you bring this up, as I suspect in the next few years with the 7.62x39 ammo supply slowing down we are going to see reloading issues with the SKS. As I suspect they need rather Hard primers.

Here are my observations with my SKS...
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82402

I can't see one of the CCI primers handling this abuse, and esp' not the touchy American Eagle ones. :eek:
 
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