Documented COL for .308 doesn't fit in my rifle...unusual?

[buttman]

Hey guys. I have a Savage Axis in .308 Winchester.

I have a number of once-fired .308 cases from FC and from Winchester. I have set up a press with 308 dies and have done some chambering tests (sized and seated bullets without powder or primers and tested them in my rifle). When I seat bullets to a COL recommended by all documentation (2.800"), the bolt absolutely won't close. Furthermore, visual inspection suggests this length is just not correct for the bullets I have.

I am using Hornady 150gr FMJ boat-tail bullets. My case lengths are all very close to written spec for .308 cases, but it seems my bullets must be shorter than normal, because to seat at 2.800, the bullet sticks way out of the case. See the picture below, this is still shorter than spec, at about 2.790" or so, and there's still a sizeable gap before the cannelure even starts.

http://i.imgur.com/DcqRY.jpg

If I press the bullet further, the cartridge will chamber. I seated a bullet to a depth that looked visually correct (about 1/3rd of the cannelure visible above the mouth) and when I do this, the round chambers well.

When I seat them in a way that seems correct, the COL is about 2.715". I measured my American Eagle factory rounds and they are 2.710" COL.

It seems to me that if factory ammo is being produced at a 2.710 COL and it fits the rifle perfectly, why is it that all documentation suggests 2.800, even for this specific bullet weight?

Logic tells me I'm simply going to just have to load my cartridges at about 2.715", but should I be looking into other possible issues first?

Any seasoned reloader's thoughts are appreciated!

 

[tiriaq]

No doubt the 2.80" is irrelevant for your rifle. If your rounds fit the magazine, and don't jam the rifling, don't worry about it.

 

[buttman]

My only concern is whether shortening it up a lot shorter than "min" COL spec will increase pressures enough that I could be in trouble. Since I'm shooting a bolt action rifle and won't be loading huge charges, I suspect this is nothing to be concerned about, but I've never shot my own .308 loads yet and tend to like to really be sure about such things before I pull the trigger!

In any case, like you said, it's kind of plain as day that the COL isn't going to work, but it leaves me quite curious how a rifle gets produced so far off that spec.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

1 -Often, Savage's have chambers in which the leade (distance to the lands) is quite short. Oftentimes (especially if you are handloading and attempting to get the best possible accuracy) this can be quite helpful.

2 - Did your loading data give a COAL of 2.800" for that specific bullet (Hornady 150 FMJBT P/N ###X), or was it more generic ("150 FMJBT")?
2a - even if the load data was for that particular bullet, it could be that the load was developed using a different rifle with a long throat (just as Savages tend to have throats on the short side, Remingtons usually have throats that are very long)

3 - your are proceeding correctly in your loading (carefully measuring things, looking for problems, investigating when you find them).

4 - loading that bullet to 2.710" would be just fine.

5 - you are right to think about the fact that loading to 2.710" will produce somewhat higher pressure than loading to 2.800". If you are loading sensibly (from START load, then working up), all is well; if your loading technique is to look up the MAX load, and add a bit because there usually are some safety factors, and then see if that's OK.... well, um, you wouldn't be asking these questions if that was your style.

 

[buttman]

1 -Often, Savage's have chambers in which the leade (distance to the lands) is quite short. Oftentimes (especially if you are handloading and attempting to get the best possible accuracy) this can be quite helpful.

2 - Did your loading data give a COAL of 2.800" for that specific bullet (Hornady 150 FMJBT P/N ###X), or was it more generic ("150 FMJBT")?

It was generic "150gr FMJ BT" data, but moreover, almost all documentation all over the place agrees with the 2.800 COL for not only this but many/most bullets.

2a - even if the load data was for that particular bullet, it could be that the load was developed using a different rifle with a long throat (just as Savages tend to have throats on the short side, Remingtons usually have throats that are very long)

That sounds to be quite likely. I am certain the load data was noted as being tested with another make of rifle.

3 - your are proceeding correctly in your loading (carefully measuring things, looking for problems, investigating when you find them).

4 - loading that bullet to 2.710" would be just fine.

5 - you are right to think about the fact that loading to 2.710" will produce somewhat higher pressure than loading to 2.800". If you are loading sensibly (from START load, then working up), all is well; if your loading technique is to look up the MAX load, and add a bit because there usually are some safety factors, and then see if that's OK.... well, um, you wouldn't be asking these questions if that was your style.

Thanks for the direction!

 

[rnbra-shooter]

It was generic "150gr FMJ BT" data, but moreover, almost all documentation all over the place agrees with the 2.800 COL for not only this but many/most bullets.

For a .308, 2.800" is the max length that you can load to, in order to be assured that your round will fit into every magazine out there.

In many instances, seeing "2.800" in load data for a .308 is simply telling you, "if you load longer than this, it might not fit in your magazine".

Of course, if you loaded quite a bit longer than 2.800" it would probably still fit in _your_ rifle's magazine; and in the case of this particular bullet, you need to load quite a bit _shorter_, in order for it to fit in your chamber. Welcome to reloading ;-)

 

[buttman]

Ahh...that helps, Daniel. In some locations, I saw COL listed as "Minimum COL", and in other places, it was just "COL" (or OAL). Since it was referred to as "min" in some places, I assumed that this the COL was a suggestion of "don't load shorter than this or else pressures could be too high", but clearly this is not the case.

Thanks again for the pointers. I am going to set up my die to seat bullets so that they chamber and eject as smoothly as factory ammo and then I'll start with a nice light load to get started.

 

[Baribal]

Hornady (8th) gives 2.735" for most of the 150 / 155 grains bullets, the exceptions being the BT-FMJ (#3037) @ 2.700", the A-Max (#30312) @ 2.800" and the RN (#3035) @ 2.520".

Hornady dimensions also tend to seat the bullets at the cannelure level, which is not mandatory. A widely accepted rule of thumb says a bullet should be seating at least 1X the bullet diameter (of the straight surface) for strenght and better alignment.

 

[dead meat]

I`ve been reloading for 40+ and the COL figure is the last thing i would look at. I go by the chamber and magazine length. To many variables and bullet styles, depends if the chambering reamer is new or been sharpened a few times and getting to the end of it`s life.

 

[Suputin]

I`ve been reloading for 40+ and the COL figure is the last thing i would look at. I go by the chamber and magazine length. To many variables and bullet styles, depends if the chambering reamer is new or been sharpened a few times and getting to the end of it`s life.

+1. IMHO COAL is a totally worthless measurement. I have NEVER used it in any of my loads ever. Yet we seem to see weekly threads by newbies obsessing over it.

 

[buttman]

+1. IMHO COAL is a totally worthless measurement. I have NEVER used it in any of my loads ever. Yet we seem to see weekly threads by newbies obsessing over it.

As a confessed newbie, I got the impression it was safer to obsess over inconsistent information than to just shrug my shoulders and go ruin the rifling in the mouth of my chamber by forcing bullets into it at the COL that was specified.

I get where you're coming from, as I participate in other forums where repeating oneself can become tiresome, but given how quick everyone is to brow-beat newbies for making mistakes reloading, I'm surprised anyone is abject to these kinds of questions.

And in my defence, I read a crap ton of data before I posted this. I was already fairly sure of the answer, but wanted to be sure experienced people were in agreement. No one was ever worse off by being more careful than they needed to be. I also didn't post a typical "HEYWHATS THE RIGHT OAL FOR 308 IN A SAVAGE RIFLE?! THANKS". I provided a thorough description of my gear, components, my problem, and my findings thus far. Just looking for some piece of mind.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

As a confessed newbie, I got the impression it was safer to obsess over inconsistent information than to just shrug my shoulders and go ruin the rifling in the mouth of my chamber by forcing bullets into it at the COL that was specified.

For what it's worth, you won't damage your chamber by forcing bullets into it. The bullets (copper) are too soft.

If you stick the bullet in firmly enough, it can get stuck, and stay in place when you extract the case. If the case was charged with powder, it can dump powder into your action - can be a bit of a job to clean out. Powder likes to get into your locking lugs, so you can't close your bolt, and in some rifles a few kernels of powder like to find just the "right" spot in your trigger mechanism to muck things up, usually when you least want it to happen.

I also didn't post a typical "HEYWHATS THE RIGHT OAL FOR 308 IN A SAVAGE RIFLE?! THANKS". I provided a thorough description of my gear, components, my problem, and my findings thus far. Just looking for some piece of mind.

Yes, you asked the question(s) well http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. I was even going to compliment you on that, but I had already written too much... ;-)

 

[manitou210]

The once fired you have resized (FL RESIZED) ? have you just tried putting brass into chamber with out [powder, primer or bullet) it goes in out smoothly ?

 

[buttman]

The once fired you have resized (FL RESIZED) ? have you just tried putting brass into chamber with out [powder, primer or bullet) it goes in out smoothly ?

Hi Manitou. The brass is being FL resized, and the brass was not fired from my rifle. Once I have a good sized supply of 308 brass that I've run through my gun, I will probably get a neck-only sizer.

I didn't try cycling any empty cases without a bullet yet, but I will try that. That's a good idea, to be sure the case neck itself isn't causing the round to not load.

 

[phishroy]

What does COAL achieve other than making sure it will fit a magazine.
I use the measurement to the ogive, which is the measurement that i use to seat my bullet.


I measure the length to the lands for each of my rifles and i keep that measurement at the front of each booklet for that rifle.

So the bullets may be different but as long as i know the ogive mesurmant i can know how far the bullet is off the lands.
Even with the same weight bullets the ogive distance on the bullet will change for example a 30 cal 165 grain nosler is a much longer bullet with the ogive set back compared to a hornady 30 165 grain bullet.

Even though these bullets are the same weight one will be seated deeper than the other in order to keep the ogive at the same distance off the lands.

 

[Ganderite]

For my repeaters my log book shows the max length to fit the mag. For single shot rifles I just note the length that shoots best with that particular bullet.

My "Do Not Exceed" length for ammo made for others (with mags) is 2.820". Most of my match ammo is loaded 2.800" for others.

I note you are using a FMJ bullet. A soft point would be more accurate. I don't know if there is a cost advantage to the FMJ.

 

[Lyallpeder]

I had the same problem with my savage 99 in .308. 2.800 like my lee manual said was too long to eject the unfired round. If I seat them to 2.747 they load and unload fine but the crimp is still to far to catch the Cannelure. So I worked slowly to a leangth that crimps in the right spot and watched for it getting to hot.
I was using hornady SST 150gr and SPBT 150 gr

 

[Xman]

I'm going to quote myself from an earlier post because it's relevant to this:

I emailed Hornady. Here is the exchange with their techs :



Comments:

I am reloading some Hornady 150gr. FMJ-BT .308 bullets using RL-15 powder. The Hornady book tells me to make the C.O.A.L length 2.780 but if I do that, I am not catching the cannelure even partially if I want to crimp and I am using these reloads in an M1A service rifle; crimping is necessary due to recoil and violent chambering.

In order to catch the cannelure, I have to reduce the C.O.A.L. to 2.715. Would it be safe to go .065 shorter than the book recommends and seat these bullets at 2.715 with the entire range of recommended powder quantities?

Please advise!

Thanks!

****

John, in our current manual we have the COL set at 2.700 so you will be fine at your seating depth Thanks

 

[mwjones]

Here's what I do for ALL my rifles.

1) Resize a case as you normally would, and start a bullet but do not seat it fully and do NOT crimp it.

2) Put this dummy cartridge in the gun and close the bolt. The bullet will contact the rifling and be pushed into the case as far as it needs to be to remain in contact with the rifling with the bolt closed.

3) Remove the cartridge and measure the overall length. Write it down.

4) Pull the bullet back out and screw out your die. Re seat the bullet a 1/4 or 1/8 turn down at a time, measuring after each step, until the cartridge overall length is .005" shorter than the number you wrote down after step 3

5) Chamber in the gun. If it chambers properly, fits in the magazine, and feeds out fo the magazine, remove it from the gun.

6) Screw out the bullet seating plug of your die and screw down the die body so you can crimp that bugger in there good! Measure again to make sure it's still .005 shorter than the "contacting the lands" length. Save this dummy to set up your dies in the future.

7) Repeat this process with every bullet you plan to use. Pretty soon, you'll have a nice display of dummy rounds with all different bullets

 

[stevebc]

7) Repeat this process with every bullet you plan to use. Pretty soon, you'll have a nice display of dummy rounds with all different bullets

This is exactly what I do.