Does a 300 Weatherby have an advantage?
- Thread starter todbartell
- Start date
Yes, this is my take as well. Nevertheless, there ARE a lot of weatherby fanbois out there. But this thread really isn't about weatherby guns. 'all else being equal' I believe was the phrase usedstubblejumper said:
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Within the confines of the velocity limitations of our current canister grade powders, our current premium bullets, and our current cartridges, the only way to significantly increase power - as it pertains to killing game - is to increase caliber and thereby bullet weight. A .30-378 will never be the equal of a .375 because you cannot shoot 380 grain .30 caliber bullets at .375 velocities - regardless of the cartridge used. The reason that this is important is because fully expanded, a lighter .30 caliber bullet would not have the momentum required to penetrate tissue equal to the .375 bullet nor would it's cross sectional area match that of the .92" fully expanded 380 gr. bullet. If of equal weight, the .30 caliber bullet would be unable to match the velocity of the .375 bullet, which would negatively effect both penetration and bullet upset. Speaking of bullets, even our best premium bullets have a pretty checkered performance record when impact velocities exceed 2700 fps. Therefore arguments of which cartridge is a better killer based solely on which cartridge has the higher velocity may not hold up under close observation. And so it goes, a .308 is not a .375, a .375 is not a .458, and a .458 is not a .600.
The question was to compare the .300 Winchester to the .300 Weatherby, and as such we can see that given theoretically equal rifles, the Weatherby has an advantage of some 150 fps. Most of us with any shooting experience at all know that such an advertised advantage is dubious at best, simply because rifles are not equal, so in some cases the Weatherby might have an exceptional velocity advantage, but in the next case may not have any advantage at all.
The question was to compare the .300 Winchester to the .300 Weatherby, and as such we can see that given theoretically equal rifles, the Weatherby has an advantage of some 150 fps. Most of us with any shooting experience at all know that such an advertised advantage is dubious at best, simply because rifles are not equal, so in some cases the Weatherby might have an exceptional velocity advantage, but in the next case may not have any advantage at all.
To start with,I have never seen a 380gr .375" bullet as most people choose 270gr or 300gr bullets for the 375h&h.Secondly I used to own a 375h&h and the 300gr partition fired out of the 375h&h did not penetrate as well as the 180gr tsx out of my 300ultramag.Thirdly,the 300gr partitions that I tested did not expand to .92",in fact it was more like .700" while I have recovered a 180gr tsx that expanded to .800".With the proper bullet the high velocity .308"s can do many of the things that were formerly only possible with much larger bores.
If by performance, you mean a flatter trajectory enabling you to hit your target at a slightly longer distance, and I mean slightly, then of course the Wheatherby is slightly faster.
But anybody who has shot any game knows that if you took twin animals, stood them side-by-side in exactly the same orientation, and shot them with the same load out of the same rifle in the exact same spot(even heart lungs), there a good possibility that 1 of them may drop on the spot and the other may run a bit before expiring.
So how could you even begin to gauge two slightly different cartridges that offer a 100-200fps velocity difference?
You shoot one moose with a WinMag under one set of conditions, and it takes 5 step before falling over. You shoot the next with a 30-06 and it drops on the spot. I guess the 30-06 is better?
What is the criteria for gauging killing power?
But anybody who has shot any game knows that if you took twin animals, stood them side-by-side in exactly the same orientation, and shot them with the same load out of the same rifle in the exact same spot(even heart lungs), there a good possibility that 1 of them may drop on the spot and the other may run a bit before expiring.
So how could you even begin to gauge two slightly different cartridges that offer a 100-200fps velocity difference?
You shoot one moose with a WinMag under one set of conditions, and it takes 5 step before falling over. You shoot the next with a 30-06 and it drops on the spot. I guess the 30-06 is better?
What is the criteria for gauging killing power?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
stubblejumper said:
Once the Rhino .375-380's become more widely avilable you'll never look back, and they do expand to .92" in tissue - I've never seen another bullet perform as well. The 270 and 300 gr X bullets penetrate as deep due to their higher impact velocities, but this high velocity very often results in the wings being shed and the plug is only slightly expanded. In tests I conducted last summer the 380's were superior by a wide margin. Due to the fact that the killing ability of any bullet is in direct proportion to it's frontal cross sectional area, the .30's can do nothing with regards to terminal performance on game that a big bore can't do better. For this reason when more power is required for a specific job - such as the hunting of dangerous game - higher velocity extends range, but only bigger bullets increase killing power.
Last edited:
I have had the petals on the 375 break off and then the bullet turned around and ended up travelling backwards, which bent one of the petals straight back towards the front.
Taken from a woods bison I got in 1999.
Ted
Taken from a woods bison I got in 1999.
Ted
Below is a recovered 180gr tsx.The bullet expande to .800" and the petals are intact despite a muzzle velocity of 3380fps.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d128/stubblejumper11/PA050015.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d128/stubblejumper11/PA050019.jpg
Which do you think would cause a larger wound channel,the bullet in the above links,or the .375" bullet that Why Not POSTED?
Last edited:
- Location
- South Cariboo, B.C.
Any bullet can get turned around or tumble, pieces come off etc...
I even wonder about all the retained weight hoopla. As long as it retains enough weight to complete the journey through the animal and out the other side, is it all that important that the bullet retain 97.99999999% of it's weight? Even if 60% retained weight made a hole in the far side, didn't the bullet do it's job?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
joe-nwt said:
I agree completely, the only time weight retention comes into the formula is when a minimal bullet has been chosen for the job at hand, such as a .243 on a moose or a .375 on a cape buff.
as bullets slow inside an animal, shedding weight and coming to a stop, permanent wound channel will narrow until it is the diameter of the bullet
its nice to have high retained weight, and bullets like Xs whistle through game fast
its nice to have high retained weight, and bullets like Xs whistle through game fast
If you recovered the bullet to determine the retained weight then obviously the bullet didn't make a hole in the far side.Perhaps with a little more retained weight it would have.But if the bullet does exit,retained weight is unimportant.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Well here is the best evidence against the use of high velocity to try to maximize the killing potential from modern premium bullets. All the bullets in this picture are .375's. The two bullets on the left are a 270 gr XLC which had an impact velocity of 2800 fps, and a 300 gr original X which had an impact velocity of 2600 fps. Both of the X's lost their petals, which would of resulted in significantly smaller permanent wound channels. The bullet on the right is a 380 gr Rhino - with an unfired example for comparison. The impact velocity was 2300 fps, yet despite this low impact velocity, the bullet opened fully, and due to it's momentum penetrated to the same depth of the X's - when nearly an inch in diameter. Incidentally both X bullets penetrated to the same depth due to the difference in velocity, and both bullets would of undoubtedly resulted in the timely demise of a nondangerous animal. But look closely - we see another demon of high velocity at work. The shank of the 300 gr X, it is showing the signs of bending. IMHO this bullet would not of penetrated in a straight line, and would not result in the terminal performance a hunter would expect. When I conducted this test, I was looking for the ultimate soft point bullet for stopping dangerous game at very short range - and I believe I have found that in these 380 gr Rhinos. I also proved to myself that increasing velocity does not increase the terminal effects of a bullet.
