- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
Go ultra Mag 
Frank
Frank
Does a 300 Weatherby have an advantage?
- Thread starter todbartell
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9 pages.......YAWN!
That, my friend, is serious energy.
What I'd really like to know is, since alot of you guys seem to think recoil is your friend, why you aren't hunting with 8-bore and 4-bore double rifles!
And to the wit who said "Go magnum or go home" I'm going to head off and have some cocoa and play with my boring rifles.
Y'know.....the ones that got people through 2 world wars.
But hey, I guess someone has to keep Hodgdon, IMR and the other powder companies in business.
Hell, Frank, if we're going there we may as well go a 700 Nitro.Levi Garrett said:Go ultra Mag
Frank
That, my friend, is serious energy.
What I'd really like to know is, since alot of you guys seem to think recoil is your friend, why you aren't hunting with 8-bore and 4-bore double rifles!
And to the wit who said "Go magnum or go home" I'm going to head off and have some cocoa and play with my boring rifles.
Y'know.....the ones that got people through 2 world wars.
But hey, I guess someone has to keep Hodgdon, IMR and the other powder companies in business.
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Weatherby's theory about the means to achieve the best "killing factor" was not based on the permanent wound channel nor on the penetration.
His idea was that a relatively small diameter bullet - if impacted the target at a very high speed - could produce amazing results by hidrostatic (actually hydrodinamic) shock, by cavitation effect in the body fluids and by the energy wave dispersed in the organs surrounding the penetration channel.
I believe one can shoot a moose with a 6.5 mm caliber and be happy, while another will advocate the use of the 50 BMGs for the same purpose.
The gains in the 30 caliber.... starting with the 308 W and ending with the 30-378 .... one you can shoot all day and enjoy.... the other would extrude the hero feeling out of the regular shooter in no time.
And like IVO said... 338 Lapua can take them both..... so why bother ?
His idea was that a relatively small diameter bullet - if impacted the target at a very high speed - could produce amazing results by hidrostatic (actually hydrodinamic) shock, by cavitation effect in the body fluids and by the energy wave dispersed in the organs surrounding the penetration channel.
I believe one can shoot a moose with a 6.5 mm caliber and be happy, while another will advocate the use of the 50 BMGs for the same purpose.
The gains in the 30 caliber.... starting with the 308 W and ending with the 30-378 .... one you can shoot all day and enjoy.... the other would extrude the hero feeling out of the regular shooter in no time.
And like IVO said... 338 Lapua can take them both..... so why bother ?
Actually you are making a generalization that is not always true.If you had chosen a bullet that would have held together at all velocities the test would have been valid,but that was not the case in this instance.The petals breaking off reduced the expanded diameter and the retained weight,making the test results virtually meaningless.Some bullets will hold together quite well at high velocity as the pictures of my recovered bullet prove.
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stubblejumper said:
True. You're comparing apples to oranges. Nosler partitions tend to perform well at higher speeds. Ballistic tips, on the other hand tend to frag at high speeds. You have to comare the same bullet types to come to a valid conclustion. Several different loads with the barnes, for example, would be more useful
true north said:
Your wife makes fun of your size too!!! I thought it was just me who had to defend my masculinity to my children.
That makes a good pool question, how big a gun is required to stop our wives from making fun of manhood?
30-30
308
30-06
300 wsm
300 win
300 wth
300 UMAG
30-378 wth
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
stubblejumper said:
Above is a chart which was posted on CGN some time ago, and shows the effects of impact velocities from 1400 to 3100 FPS on a variety of 180 gr. - .30 caliber bullets. Each box contains 3 recovered bullets, with the inches of penetration on the left and retained weight on the right side of each box.
From this chart we can see a couple of interesting trends. Firstly is that for the most part soft point bullet designs tend to fail after 2700 FPS - despite notable exceptions. Secondly we see that as velocity increases, penetration actually decreases, and at 3100 FPS most bullets have only penetrated a foot. The Barnes X stands out as a noticeable exception in this regard, because with it's petals broken off, it has continued on to reach an impressive 20" of penetration.
This should prove that in situations where additional horsepower is required, it is far more reliable to increase bore size than it is to increase velocity. Additionally I might add, that when that extra power is needed is when the target is close and you might be shooting to save your life. When you are hunting whitetails, a foot of bullet penetration will bring home the meat, but when dealing with dangerous game at close range, trust me you'll want more.
By the way the pictures you posted showed a TSX which had obviously been recovered from a game animal, and I am curious to know at what range you made the shot. The bullet performance looks perfect for an impact velocity of around 2500 FPS.
Well Boomer, I can find at least one flaw with the above chart. The bullets were all recovered obviously, and any fragmentation may not have fragmented in real hunting situations before the bullet left the animal.
Agree?
So while this chart shows the potential integrity of each bullet when fired into more newsprint(or whatever)than it can possibly travel through, it really does not indicate performance on any particular game in any particular situation.
Agree?
So while this chart shows the potential integrity of each bullet when fired into more newsprint(or whatever)than it can possibly travel through, it really does not indicate performance on any particular game in any particular situation.
For more than 60% to say there's no advantage to a 300 WBY is just too stupid. There may only be a slight dif. but come on. What are we saying, there's no sense going past a 30-30? If you've ever shot anything with a 300 Mag you know it kills better than a 308. If you've never killed anything with a Mag. you have nothing to add here.
The bullet was a 180gr tsx launched out of my 300ultramag at 3380fps.I have verified the velocity over two chronographs.The shot distance was just under 200 yards with a resulting impact velocity in excess of 2900fps.You will notice that no petals broke off,despite the fact that the bullet destroyed an entire section of an elks spine.This is an actual hunting result ,not a simulation using some other material.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
stubblejumper said:
It is very impressive that the bullet performed so well with such a high impact velocity, and I will certainly give the TSX's a closer look for my wife's '06. My own testing on aqueous material with the .375 loaded with X's has resulted in bullet failure well below that level, as stated previously. I would point out however that when I'm after cape buffalo this summer, shots will be at 100' or less - which was the point of the testing...to see if any soft would stand up or if I should just use solids. Now the .375 is staying home and I'm using a .500 - but that's life. The fact that I could cause a failure with the X's but not with the Rhino's is enough for me. It is also enough for me to drop the X's in favour if the Rhinos for my bear loads - which again are for use at very close range. The X's remain a good bullet for moose, and on lighter game like caribou I prefer the Nosler 260 gr Accu-Bonds - down loaded to 2600. At this reduced velocity I've found them very accurate, and the Nosler's open up better on light game than the X's.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
MTM said:
We are able to get good bullet performance at velocities in excess of 2500 FPS, so yes an '06 or a .300 have an advantage over the .30-30. The advantage a .300 has over an '06 is less obvious, and the difference between a .300 Winchester and a .300 Weatherby is simply beyond my grasp. I believe that the .30-06 - .300 magnum levels are optimum performance levels which can be expected from .30 caliber rifles given our current technology, and the only sure way to increase power beyond that of a .300 magnum is to go bigger rather than faster.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
joe-nwt said:
What we can deduct from the chart...and you are right it's only a chart - in the real world things either work or they don't...is that as velocity increases so then penetration decreases. The reason we want to increase power is because we might be going after an animal which is bigger, closer, or more dangerous than those we have encountered with this particular rifle before. A .223 can kill a moose, but are there better tools for the job? Of coarse, but do we look for yet a faster .22 - no we take a step up to a .270 and our problem is solved.
MTM said:
a 30-30 will launch a 170gr bullet at no more than 2100fps. A .300 Win Mag will launch a 180gr bullet at 3100fps. The momentum of the .300 WM is 70.00lb-ft/s. The momentum of the 30-30 at 200 yards is 38.64 lb-ft/s. The .300 WM has 81% more momentum. The .300 WBY would have 73.54lb-ft/s, or a 5% advantage. So the comparison is a little different.
What would a 5% advantage equate to in a hunting situation? Nothing. That is the whole point, the real advantage is nothing.
At 300 yards the .300 WM has 65.45lb-ft of momentum.
Just to give you an idea, a 30-06 with a 180gr @ 2750fps has 57.54 lb-ft/s momentum at 300 yards, and I doubt that anyone here, who has experience shooting game, will say that a .30-06 with good quality 180gr bullets is inadequate for deer, elk or moose at 300 yards. And that range probably not only covers 95% of the shots on game, but also is a good limit for the experienced hunter in the field.
So then, if a .30-06 is enough at 300 yards, and 300 yards covers the vast majority of hunting situations and hunter skills, and the .300 WM has almost 14% more momentum than the .30-06, then what is the advantage that the .300 Wby can offer?
Put it in a different way: The .300 WM can kill game farther than you can consistantly hit game, so what advantage does a smidgen more power make?
I would agree, I'm just saying there is an advantage. I still own a 300 WM but don't use them anymore because I always feel I'm just doing 06 damage a little farther out. To do a lot more than the 30-06 I think you have to go larger dia. Of the 30 mags the WBY shoots the flatest and hitts the hardest, even if only by a bit. Not counting Ultra Mags and other big big ones.
