Does anyone know why the Ross bayonet was shaped like a butcher knife with no point?

The reason the 1907 sword bayonet was so long compared to the 1888 was the SMLE was a shorter rifle and the commanders figured you needed a 5 foot weapon to take down a horseman.

The modified Ross once it had a point on it was a pretty good bayonet for the trenches and I would not be surprised at all if a lot of Canadian soldiers hung on to it after switching to the SMLE. It was a much better choice for hand to hand trench combat than the 1907 when used away from the rifle as a knife.

It also had one of the only useful blade edges I have ever seen on a bayonet.
This is almost as curious as the lack of a point. A Ross could do all the things
a soldier usually needed to carry another knife for like cut rope or webbing ,prepare food etc.
What the hell were they thinking when they designed a bayonet that was the polar opposite of every bayonet ever made?

I don't think it had to do with getting stuck in the enemy's ribcage. The reason most normal bayonets were not kept sharp was really so troopers would not accidentally slice each others ears off etc. If it was a dull point with no edge you would have to use a fair bit of force to hurt someone.

Just imagine if you will giving 100 17 ,18 and 19 year olds razor sharp 1907 sword bayonets? How long would it be until the first injury? Keeping them dull kept the lads from maiming each other in mock sword fights ,drill accidents etc but still allowed them to function as bayonets. I am pretty sure the story about them getting stuck in an enemys ribcage is some CO's attempt not to tell them that they were considered to stupid to have sharp ones.

The US army did not even trust it's soldiers to pull there own ripcords on the parachutes and did it for them.
 
DOOK said:
Weren't you supposed to stab, then shoot to get it out?
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Yes, if you were trained by the USMC.

savagefan said:
No, waste of ammo and useless, stomp on the rib cage, twist as you pull.
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Yes, if you were not trained by the USMC.

:);):)

By the way, whenever I don't understand something about the Ross, I just try to look to the early Mauser designs it was "inpired by". Too bad that won't help explain the bayo.

Edit: Perhaps they liked the Kukri? ;)
 
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I think there was a german butchers bayonet ,maybe that is what they were thinking.
I will do some more research.

I may have finally found a question to stump the Rossperts.
 
Here is a photo I found somewhere of a bayonet that is somewhat similar to the Ross. It has a much more traditional blade with a fuller and not much of an edge but a the point is close. It does seem to have a bit more point than the Ross though. I am not sure but I think this is the German "butchers" bayonet?
http://picasaweb.google.com/Lance.G.Davis/Bayonets/photo#5183758203979704754
I thought maybe it was a similar idea to the pioneer bayonet in giving them a tool as well as a weapon except this would be for the unit cook?
 
Unsub said:
I am pretty sure the story about them getting stuck in an enemys ribcage is some CO's attempt not to tell them that they were considered to stupid to have sharp ones.
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Oh, I dunno about that, it's not been my experience that they're reluctant to call you stupid. Whenever I go on course I have to move my bayonet from my sternum to the side of my tac vest because they're afraid we're gonna stab ourselves in the chin by missing the scabbard.
 
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smellie said:
The general idea in bayonet fighting is NOT to SLICE a hole in the other guy, it is to SMASH a hole in the other guy.

Great War vets I have known didn't keep the things too sharp in case they went IN and then they had trouble getting them OUT. Absolutely ruin your day if you've got your sticker stuck in Fritz and his buddy comes along and blows you away.

Wounds made by a dull blade would crush their way in, destroying enoughn ribcage etc material that the thing would slide out easily.

'Nuff said!
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There is a fellow on the S&W forum who related a personal Viet Nam experience regarding bayonets a few years ago.

With fixed bayonet, he said he stuck a NVA soldier with one in a battle and then had to stand on the guy's chest to pull it out.

He said it was only with great effort he could pull the "damn fool thing" out.

Needless to say, he now dislikes the idea of bayonets on rifles and never attempted the same maneuver again.
 
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Nyles said:
Oh, I dunno about that, it's not been my experience that they're reluctant to call you stupid. Whenever I go on course I have to move my bayonet from my sternum to the side of my tac vest because they're afraid we're gonna stab ourselves in the chin by missing the scabbard.
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I was in Gagetown back when we first got issued the new bayonets. At that time, the scabbards (which were crap) were on the web gear. Since the scabbards tended to come undone, and the bayonets were handle heavy, if you were not careful, the strap came undone, the scabbard flipped upside down, and your bayonet was gone. And you were in the ####, naturally.
So we started to put lanyards on them. Unfortunately, one guy must not have had enough para cord, so his lanyard was only about a foot long. In between section attacks, we all went to sit down by the side of the road. During the attacks, his bayonet had come out of the scabbard and was dangling from the lanyard. Upside down. A foot below his waist.
Yeah... he sat on the damn thing.
Had to get someone else to yank it out of his ass before we sent him to the medics.
Thats the sort of thing that takes a long time to live down.... :slap:
 
I have actually been working on a design for a modern bayonet. I figure that there is not nearly as much use for a bayonet on the end of a rifle as in WW1 e but the soldiers do need a first rate combat/using knife that could be attached to a rifle or shotgun in a pinch. Bayonets are useful for transporting prisoners ,keeping rowdy civilians at a safe (less dangerous actually)distance and in very close combat.

The blade should be a 6 inch spear point single edged and of a good cheap stainless like a Sandvick or the steel used by the Byrd knives.
In a way it is not so much a bayonet as a plan to finally get the army to buy their soldiers a decent combat knife. Other than the US's WW2 KBar for some reason most armies make their soldiers buy their own knives if they want a decent one.

I have not seen the new CF Eickhorn but the specs are not that impressive and not everyone in the army has been issued one by a long shot.

My theory about the Ross(and you all thought I got off topic:D) is it was designed as a practical using knife not as a bayonet. It is quite a bit shorter than the 1907 which according to doctrine of the time had to be 5 feet long when attached to the rifle in order to deal with mounted troops.

Maybe Sir Charles had the same idea I have to use the bayonet as a means to provide the troops with a first rate using knife. The Ross bayonet is a really nice knife albeit a bit longer than usual. Another really good using knife that happened to be a bayonet is the No5 Jungle carbine's.
 
I have heard rumours from thse playing in the sandbox right now, that the bayonet IS extremely handy - For some reason, the large nasty crowds don't fear rifles pointed at them, but with a bayo on the end, they tend to give the troopies a little more room.

(Third-hand info, that I read somewhere from some guy who wrote it on the interweb).

Neal
 
Actually, the new bayonet is awesome. I was quite impressed with it, and everybody I've talked to who's used them in theatre was quite impressed.
 
A good knife/ bayonet is the Finn M39 SKY Civil Guard . They seem to be close to a Kbar or Ross in shape and are very knife like, yet rock solid attatched to the rifle.
 
I forget what British unit it was in Iraq, but they were ambushed, and they went to the bayonet. The "holy warriors" that didn't run fast enough got the sharp end!
 
I admit my main problem with the new bayonet is I am a knife snob. 420HC and
a tanto blade just does not meet my high standards. Actually it is probably fine for a bayonet. The point is fine for penetration and the steel is exactly what you would want if you had to store them for long periods. I was hoping they would get something that would double as a first rate combat knife as well as a bayonet. It is pretty tricky to design a knife that has good penetration and a usable edge.

A copy of the No5 Jungle Carbine bayonet would work though.
 
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