Does cartridge selection even matter these days?

[PeterPan]

I have been stating this for long time: bullet selection is what it matters more then caliber, however certain calibers don't have good quality bullets to have good kill.
I will not take .223Rem Moose Hunting and expect to take him down at 500yr range.
.223Rem doesn't have good selection of bullets for bigger game, however if a shooter can get a clean hit from short distance, will do the job.
Another thing is how much time we spend we the gun we are going for our hunt?
Is it only before moose hunt for firing a max 10-20 rounds or at least 6x a year trying all kind of shooting.

 

[Gatehouse]

There is a current thread about .308 vs 30-06 right now...

If there was ever a more glaring example of what I am talking about, I don't know what it is.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Fair observation, but where do we draw the line?
So why not a 6.5?
So why not a .257 bore?
Why not a 243?

Following a similar truth, perfectly placed .224 loaded TSX in the vitals and it will work every time. So we should all use centerfire .22's with premium bullets?

That's the theory, but the reality is we don't always hit the perfect mark.
Murphy will show up and sh1t will happen.

Some times a 20mm cannon wont help, but (in my experience) other times a bigger gun can save the day.
A few years ago my hunting buddy had a couple of hunts in a row where his shots were just bad.
The first was a moose square in the guts and the second was mule deer in the same spot. No vitals were touched...At all.
The deer was DRT and the moose folded within 20 yards.... Both were 375 270gr TSX.
Another buddy poked a huge moose in no mans land above the spine...Not a mark on the vitals or spine and it was DRT...In spectacular fashion yet!
.416 400gr Partition.
No finishing shots required on any of the animals.

Not for a minute am I suggesting that we need 416's or 375's for deer, or that we can shoot animals in the guts with a big bore and expect everything to go well.
On the other hand those incidents certainly made me question the commonly suggested opinion that bigger wont help on a poorly placed shot.

Every notch up the scale provides a small increment in forgiveness in shot placement, lets more air in, lets more blood out, provides a bit more shock, gives us a bit better chance at a second shot, and gives a little more hope for a blood trail.

I expect Murphy to show up and despite advancements in bullet technology I carry more horsepower than I need.
Some times a lot more than I need.

There's a fairly well-known gent who used to be a huge proponent of shooting deer, mules, etc, in the guts with a .220 Swift, ON PURPOSE! He claimed that it kills them lightning quick, even with a gut shot. Does anybody know who I'm talking about?

Animals can be DRT with big guns, just as they can be DRT with small guns, even when hit directly in the guts. Weird things happen sometimes.

 

[Dogleg]

There is a current thread about .308 vs 30-06 right now...

If there was ever a more glaring example of what I am talking about, I don't know what it is.

I see; since some cartridges of identical caliber are very similar with some loads, it naturally follows that they all are, all the time. Gotcha.

 

[Pickles]

There is a current thread about .308 vs 30-06 right now...

If there was ever a more glaring example of what I am talking about, I don't know what it is.

Kind of like a 375 H&H vs. a 375 Ruger?

 

[X-fan]

There's a fairly well-known gent who used to be a huge proponent of shooting deer, mules, etc, in the guts with a .220 Swift, ON PURPOSE! He claimed that it kills them lightning quick, even with a gut shot. Does anybody know who I'm talking about?

Animals can be DRT with big guns, just as they can be DRT with small guns, even when hit directly in the guts. Weird things happen sometimes.

News to me.....Sounds ridiculous!

Ever heard of anyone anchoring a moose with a shot in the meaty void above its spine with said pea shooter?

 

[Calum]

I really wish Gatehouse's post would be made into a sticky.

 

[Jordan Smith]

News to me.....Sounds ridiculous!

Ever heard of anyone anchoring a moose with a shot in the meaty void above its spine with said pea shooter?

Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous. The guys that are best known for this philosophy and practice were P.O Ackley and Roy Weatherby, and I have to think that they knew a little something about killing game

 

[Gatehouse]

I see; since some cartridges of identical caliber are very similar with some loads, it naturally follows that they all are, all the time. Gotcha.

No, I'm not saying that they are all the same, all the time. I'm saying that when it comes to shooting north american game, 99% of the time it doens't matter if the hunter is using a .270 or .308 or 30-06 or 300WM or 338 WM or 7RM or 30-378 or whatever. Actually, that's what I said on the very first post.

Since thousands of moose, elk, deer have been killed very successfully with these, I think it's hard to dispute, although everyone has thier personal views on what works best. I think that "gun guys" are more opinionated on cartridge choice than just plain ol hunters.

My buddy who I was moose hunting with (the guide in the video) has seen plenty of animals shot, and thinks pretty much any 300 or 7mm Magnum is great for all northern BC game, while his guide buddy thinks a .308 is the best and uses it for everything including grizzlies. Together they have about 30 (or more) seasons of northern BC hunting experience. My friend ditched his 338WM because he liked his 300RUM better, and this year shot a moose and a grizzly with a 300WSM.

The interesting thing is neither of these guys are "gun" guys like your average CGN'er.

Anyway, the point of the whole thread is that many of us fuss too much about cartridge choice, and it still comes down to a good bullet in the right place being the most important factor. Heck, some animals drop from on the spot from a .270 and some run after being hit with a .375.

 

[X-fan]

My buddy who I was moose hunting with (the guide in the video) has seen plenty of animals shot, and thinks pretty much any 300 or 7mm Magnum is great for all northern BC game, while his guide buddy thinks a .308 is the best and uses it for everything including grizzlies. Together they have about 30 (or more) seasons of northern BC hunting experience........

I agree with you Gatehouse, but Ummm....Does that last statement make anyone else feel old and perhaps slightly sick?

Good Lord! I was hunting when Gate's Guide buddies had poopy pants!

Damn the years fly by

 

[Dogleg]

No, I'm not saying that they are all the same, all the time. I'm saying that when it comes to shooting north american game, 99% of the time it doens't matter if the hunter is using a .270 or .308 or 30-06 or 300WM or 338 WM or 7RM or 30-378 or whatever. Actually, that's what I said on the very first post.

Since thousands of moose, elk, deer have been killed very successfully with these, I think it's hard to dispute, although everyone has thier personal views on what works best. I think that "gun guys" are more opinionated on cartridge choice than just plain ol hunters.

My buddy who I was moose hunting with (the guide in the video) has seen plenty of animals shot, and thinks pretty much any 300 or 7mm Magnum is great for all northern BC game, while his guide buddy thinks a .308 is the best and uses it for everything including grizzlies. Together they have about 30 (or more) seasons of northern BC hunting experience. My friend ditched his 338WM because he liked his 300RUM better, and this year shot a moose and a grizzly with a 300WSM.

The interesting thing is neither of these guys are "gun" guys like your average CGN'er.

Anyway, the point of the whole thread is that many of us fuss too much about cartridge choice, and it still comes down to a good bullet in the right place being the most important factor. Heck, some animals drop from on the spot from a .270 and some run after being hit with a .375.

No, I'm not saying that they are all the same, all the time.

Hey we agree. I seem to remember saying that I could handle most things, some of the time with a muzzleloader.That's known
s "damning with faint praise".

I'm saying that when it comes to shooting north american game, 99% of the time it doens't matter if the hunter is using a .270 or .308 or 30-06 or 300WM or 338 WM or 7RM or 30-378 or whatever

99%? So only one shot out 100 will involve long range, high winds, less than optimum animal presentation, bigger than average critters, poor tracking conditions, an animal that must be anchored, fast approaching darkness or heaven forbid a less than perfect hit? Then there's wounded animal recovery where you just have to take whatever shot you can get.
My own experience is that at least one of these conditions happen just a bit more than 1 out of a hundred. More like frequently. I'll tool up for "frequently", if it doesn't involve a downside that affects me. I'll even plan for "sometimes."

.270 or .308 or 30-06 or 300WM or 338 WM or 7RM or 30-378 or whatever

Hey, I have or once had all of those except the 30/378. I don't have a .270 anymore, but I had 5 in total. Current count is 2 .308s, 1 30-06, 3 .300s, 2 .338s. Then there's a nearly even coverage from .17 to .416. with a gap at 8mm. I never noticed them all being the same, but I don't always pay attention.

Together they have about 30 (or more) seasons of northern BC hunting experience.

Do your friends even shave yet? I've got a tad more than double both of your guide friends put together. Mind you, years are just a number and by themselves don't prove much.

My friend ditched his 338WM because he liked his 300RUM better, and this year shot a moose and a grizzly with a 300WSM.

If your friend wants to conclude that cartriges are all the same while packing a .338 Win, 300 RUM, 300 Wissum I'll question his thought process but not his selection.

The interesting thing is neither of these guys are "gun" guys like your average CGN'er.

That is very typical of guides.

Heck, some animals drop from on the spot from a .270 and some run after being hit with a .375.

Very true. I'd go so far as to say that on light animals a .270 is more likely to drop it DRT than a .375 with the heavily constructed bullets that are the reason for it's existence. Doesn't that show that there is a difference? Higher velocity will do that. Ever notice that a rifle hits harder at close range than long? Now that's with a 400 fps difference, add another 400 to the .270 and things get decidedly interesting. You can't just take a couple cartridges with 800 fps difference in MV and expect the same results.

Anyway, the point of the whole thread is that many of us fuss too much about cartridge choice, and it still comes down to a good bullet in the right place being the most important factor.

Of course that's true. 'Course cartridge choice can go a long way to making that shot placement happen. It may be that a smaller, or better stated a light recoiling cartridge is all the shooter can handle.
It may also be that differences in trajectory and wind drift can make placeing bullets considerably harder or easier. Cartriges that have an advantage may or may not recoil more.

It's really not hard to find common cartridges that drift twice as much as others, or have twice the PBR. I don't need a lab to tell me that I dial in almosttwice the windage with a .308 as a .300 Win with bullets selected to make each cartridge look good.
Take a vital sized gong way out there, and see which one gives you more first round hits. It doesn't matter how good you are at wind dopeing, some cartridges put you at a disadvantage. The ability to hit targets is part of accuracy. The ability to put all the misses in the same spot is far less interesting, when you give it some thought.

 

[Gatehouse]

99%? So only one shot out 100 will involve long range, high winds, less than optimum animal presentation, bigger than average critters, poor tracking conditions, an animal that must be anchored, fast approaching darkness or heaven forbid a less than perfect hit? Then there's wounded animal recovery where you just have to take whatever shot you can get.

And is the cartridge supposed to make up for all of that?

High winds? Should you be shooting?

Less than optimum animal presentation? Use good bullets

Bigger than average critters? Cartridges in the .270/30-06/7RM class have been used with very good success on everything in North AMerica, including our biggest land mammal, the bison. I dont' know about walrus.

Poor tracking conditions/anchoring/fast approaching darkness/less than perfect hit? Make your shot count. Big guns or small guns won't make up for bad shooting, and a fatally hit animal rarely goes far.

Do your friends even shave yet? I've got a tad more than double both of your guide friends put together. Mind you, years are just a number and by themselves don't prove much.

They've both been hunting since they were young kids, but they have been guiding in northern BC for over 30 years. They have spent about 3-4 months per year hunting in the northern BC bush, plus a few months hunting that they do in their personal time. If you have got 60 plus years of guiding for 3-4 months per year in a remote northern BC fly in camp, then I guess you have more than double...

Anyways, this means they get to see more north american animals of various sizes and tenacity get shot than most people, and they get to see lots of different hunters use lots of different cartridges, they've seen everything from .270's to .338 Lapuas, and they don't really care what cartridge is being used, as long as you don't shoot the moose int he guts! ( like I did! )

If your friend wants to conclude that cartriges are all the same while packing a .338 Win, 300 RUM, 300 Wissum I'll question his thought process but not his selection.

Nobody is saying all cartridges are the same. (Heck they all look different, so there is a difference rigth there!) I'm saying it doesn't really matter for most hunting. When you put a good bullet from any of them in the right place, the result is the same-animals die quickly. So it most often doesn't matter, and most intraweb discussions on the topic, barring specialized situations, are mostly just blah blah blah. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Very true. I'd go so far as to say that on light animals a .270 is more likely to drop it DRT than a .375 with the heavily constructed bullets that are the reason for it's existence. Doesn't that show that there is a difference? Higher velocity will do that. Ever notice that a rifle hits harder at close range than long? Now that's with a 400 fps difference, add another 400 to the .270 and things get decidedly interesting. You can't just take a couple cartridges with 800 fps difference in MV and expect the same results.[

Of course that's true. 'Course cartridge choice can go a long way to making that shot placement happen. It may be that a smaller, or better stated a light recoiling cartridge is all the shooter can handle.
It may also be that differences in trajectory and wind drift can make placeing bullets considerably harder or easier. Cartriges that have an advantage may or may not recoil more.

It's really not hard to find common cartridges that drift twice as much as others, or have twice the PBR. I don't need a lab to tell me that I dial in almosttwice the windage with a .308 as a .300 Win with bullets selected to make each cartridge look good.
Take a vital sized gong way out there, and see which one gives you more first round hits. It doesn't matter how good you are at wind dopeing, some cartridges put you at a disadvantage. The ability to hit targets is part of accuracy. The ability to put all the misses in the same spot is far less interesting, when you give it some thought.

You shoudl go back and read my first post on the thread:

Almost all game is shot at less than 300 yards. Most is shot at less than 200 yards.

99.9% of Canadian hunters will never shoot at a grizzly bear


If you have more specialized needs (such as shooting "way out there" or "stopping dangerous animals") you probably fit into a different category than most north american hunters. After all...Most hunters don't even know what dialing in is about.

 

[Jordan Smith]

".270 or .308 or 30-06 or 300WM or 338 WM or 7RM or 30-378 or whatever"

99%? So only one shot out 100 will involve long range, high winds, less than optimum animal presentation, bigger than average critters, poor tracking conditions, an animal that must be anchored, fast approaching darkness or heaven forbid a less than perfect hit? Then there's wounded animal recovery where you just have to take whatever shot you can get.

I think the point is that if you use any of the above, and practice enough to become proficient, loaded with an appropriate bullet (TSX is my choice, but there are other good ones), you are going to make the hit and the animal is going to die in short order, regardless of which one you choose. It looks like the .308 is at the biggest "disadvantage" in that list when it comes to wind drift, drop, velocity, etc, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to bet against a well-trained guy (military sniper, perhaps?) with a .308. Regardless of which cartridge you choose, you need to practice enough, at the range you intend to hunt, to ethically make a shot.

Mind you, years are just a number and by themselves don't prove much.

This is absolutely true. A year spent with the same factory box of ammo, with maybe 1 deer taken, is worth about 1 day in the life of a true enthusiast. Just as an example- when I guided caribou hunters up in the NWT, the season would last about 6 weeks. In those 6 weeks the guides probably saw about 35 caribou shot, each, and dressed, processed, caped, etc those animals. That 6-week experience is worth more than 10 or 20 years of regular hunting for the average Joe.

 

[Dogleg]

I don't think anyone is likely to change their mind anytime soon, everyone is haveing fun, and honestly I don't believe that we are very far apart anyway. From your posts you useing a 7mm, 300 WSM, and .375 R....Ruuu..........ruuuuu nope can't say it these days. Why not a .243, 25-06 and a .270?
That's not really a whole lot different than me useing a 7 STW, .300 Win( and Roy, and WSM) and a .375 H&H most of the time. The others become interesting playthings, long on fun but short on advantages. That doesn'tstop me from useing them.
I'm getting on a plane at 5:45 AM for Alaska for a brown bear & goat hunt, and am not taking any of my old standbys. Instead I sifted through the inventory and came up with a 7 pound Kimber .338 Win. That's the best compromise that I could come up with for a single rifle backpack hunt that could involve powderburn range shots at big bitey things on flat ground, to 500 yard shots at somewhat less bitey things on steep ground. It wouldn't be my first choice for either, but with the combination it seems valid enough.

 

[Dogleg]

This is absolutely true. A year spent with the same factory box of ammo, with maybe 1 deer taken, is worth about 1 day in the life of a true enthusiast. Just as an example- when I guided caribou hunters up in the NWT, the season would last about 6 weeks. In those 6 weeks the guides probably saw about 35 caribou shot, each, and dressed, processed, caped, etc those animals. That 6-week experience is worth more than 10 or 20 years of regular hunting for the average Joe.

That sounds like one of my normal years, only we just call it going huntin'. Normally about a dozen will be my own, occasionaly double that. Heck I'm at 10, and haven't even started here yet since I've been concentrateing on the kids. Off to Alaska in the morning, then back here to guide the kids around some more and maybe think about filling a few tags for myself. Life is good.

 

[Gatehouse]

. I think that you made a sensible choice. It's the same reason I took my 300WSM on my moose/sheep/grizzly trip instead of my .375 Ruger. The .375 would be better suited to grizzly and more fun to use on moose since I hadn't shot a moose with it yet, but the 300WSM is a pound lighter for the sheep mountains, and with a 180gr TSX, would surely kill the hell out of a grizzly bear.

Good luck on your hunt, I am sure the Alaskan goats have full winter coats by now,and shoudl be gorgeous.

 

[Dogleg]

. I think that you made a sensible choice. It's the same reason I took my 300WSM on my moose/sheep/grizzly trip instead of my .375 Ruger. The .375 would be better suited to grizzly and more fun to use on moose since I hadn't shot a moose with it yet, but the 300WSM is a pound lighter for the sheep mountains, and with a 180gr TSX, would surely kill the hell out of a grizzly bear.

Good luck on your hunt, I am sure the Alaskan goats have full winter coats by now,and shoudl be gorgeous.

My biggest worry is the weather turning on us, non flying weather, freezeing to death in a pup tent or dieing in a Super-cub. Still, if they send my frozen body back wrapped in a bearskin it may be worth it.

I've got 275 grain A-Frames and 225 TSXs loaded to useable with the same sight setting out to a little past 200. After that the 225s get the nod, even if the wind blows them around like a .308. Can't have everything, and besides the wind never stops blowing here. You get used to it.

 

[Jordan Smith]

That sounds like one of my normal years, only we just call it going huntin'. Normally about a dozen will be my own, occasionaly double that. Heck I'm at 10, and haven't even started here yet since I've been concentrateing on the kids. Off to Alaska in the morning, then back here to guide the kids around some more and maybe think about filling a few tags for myself. Life is good.

That wasn't including the guide's own personally hunting for the year, nor that of his friends/family

I'm just playing here, but the truth is that we CGN'ers are a strange bunch. The VAST majority of Canadian hunters don't shoot more than 1 or 2 animals in a year. I typically shoot around 5-10 big-game animals myself (depending on draws), and help/watch another 10, or so, for friends and family. I would say that each year of hunting experience for the average CGN member is worth 10 years for the average Joe that buys a box of shells once every year or two.

 

[H4831]

Such an interesting post, lots of experience showing up. I will just add to it something my favourite gun editor, Jack O'Connor once wrote. He pointed out how much game, on different continents, he had shot, or seen shot, with the 7x57. It was very many hundreds of game animals.
Then he pointed out how much game he had shot, or seen shot, on different continents, with the 7mm Remington magnum and it to, was many hundred head of game animals. He then said that after all of that, he really couldn't see any difference in the killing power of the two cartridges. He said a good hit with either meant a dead animal, while a poor hit with either meant a wounded animal.

 

[Dogleg]

Such an interesting post, lots of experience showing up. I will just add to it something my favourite gun editor, Jack O'Connor once wrote. He pointed out how much game, on different continents, he had shot, or seen shot, with the 7x57. It was very many hundreds of game animals.
Then he pointed out how much game he had shot, or seen shot, on different continents, with the 7mm Remington magnum and it to, was many hundred head of game animals. He then said that after all of that, he really couldn't see any difference in the killing power of the two cartridges. He said a good hit with either meant a dead animal, while a poor hit with either meant a wounded animal.

JOC also said that larger cartridges are a poor substitute for shot placement; BUT "To a certain extent it is a substitute". Once a bad hit has happened horsepower is the only thing left. I also remember him discussing which calibers were more likely to kill quickly on accidental gut shots.(.270 with 130s, .300 weatherby with 150s and so on), calibers better suited for Texas heart shots on deer sized animals, and what animals it would be better to pass on. Then there was the rhino he missed altogether, the lion he shot running and a few other stories that stand out.
We're unlikely to see his like again.I wore the covers off my JOC books growing up.