Dominion Arsenals Artillery Shells WWI
- Thread starter buffdog
- Start date
Of interest WRT oldlitgow's cutaway of an 18 pdr shrapnel shell is that the propelling or base charge, that one at the base of the projectile that actually blew the shrapnel balls out of the shell, was almost certainly good old bog-standard black powder. Some things just can't be improved on.
If it matters, an argument can be made that British shrapnel shells were responsible for the deaths of more British troops than German ones. The brass believed that shrapnel would cut barbed wire belts and sent massed troops forward into completely intact wire backed by massed machine guns after utterly ineffective shrapnel bombardments. It was not until c. 1917 that the British and Commonwealth artillery received the No. 106 fuze that would reliably set HE shells off before they buried themselves in the mud that the problem was solved.
If it matters, an argument can be made that British shrapnel shells were responsible for the deaths of more British troops than German ones. The brass believed that shrapnel would cut barbed wire belts and sent massed troops forward into completely intact wire backed by massed machine guns after utterly ineffective shrapnel bombardments. It was not until c. 1917 that the British and Commonwealth artillery received the No. 106 fuze that would reliably set HE shells off before they buried themselves in the mud that the problem was solved.
I was familiar with the action of the shrapnel shell. I remember walking the dunes north of the built-up- area in Petawawa in the 1970s and being struck by the amount of shrapnel balls in the sand - there were so many that it was hard to walk without stepping on them - and Pet is a big sandbox. The area of course had been used since the early 1900s and, indeed, Petawawa was an artillery ammo manufacturing centre, although only for the Russian Imperial Army IIRC.
The second one looks distinctly Rube-Goldberg. It reminds me of the McAdam Shield Shovel. Funny how these things bubble to the surface in every war. Any detailed info on it?
The second one looks distinctly Rube-Goldberg. It reminds me of the McAdam Shield Shovel. Funny how these things bubble to the surface in every war. Any detailed info on it?
No info on the second round just found the pic awhile ago.
- The stuff IVI made for the USA was Ball M193. (55 grain).
- The 'new' 5.56mm NATO was 62 grain: Ball M855 or, for Canadian service, C-77 Ball. The USA paints the M855 tip green to differ from M193.
- The first batches of IVI C-77 had issues fragmenting in the barrel because the gilding metal of the bullet was being bit into by deeper rifling than anticipated. IVI took the PR hit, but I was told that they HAD been asking to look at barrel specs. These lots went on sale and ended up for sale in 'Shotgun News' in the USA. They claimed it was 'NATO's most expensively made 5.56 ball cartridge.' They got that right.
- Anyway, in 1988 -1989, the first 5.56 we were issued in Germany for the C7 and C8 was head stamped FNB. The belted stuff for the C9 was all Lake City 4B1T. (Ball M855 and Tracer M856).
IVI also turned out at least one massive batch of .50BMG with undrilled flash holes. REALLY ticked off the Rangemaster. One unit CO made his men hand-cycle an entire 105-round belt through each of 4 guns, then photocopied and sent in 420 Defective Ammunition reports. That got some attention.
Their commercial stuff about 1979/80 was plain dangerous at both ends. At the Gander club, a pulldown on 20 rounds of brand-new .30-30WCF revealed charges from roughly 1.5 times MAX, all the way down to ZERO... in the same box. Only thing that saved at least one guy's rifle was the fact that the primers were bum as well. Their .303 was even worse, if you can even believe that. I wrote a newspaper article on their lousy brass and they tried to sue me. My boss sent them the actual cases I had photographed for the article, along with the info that they could keep these ones because we still had 300 more to go to court with. Suddenly, no more talk of lawsuits: huge advertising contract instead! I still have 50 or 100 rounds of their out-of-spec brass around here somewhere.
Back to the OP here. What great photographs! Just thinking of the sheer number of rounds made inspires plain awe. In the French Army, they fired 7,000,000 rounds of artillery ammunition before the Nivelle Offensive alone. In our Army, arty ammo was very much at a premium for the first half of the War. In 1915, guns SUPPORTING ATTACKS were restricted to 2 rounds per gun per day. The result was the massacre of a generation.... all because a penny-wise and pound-foolish Government wanted to "save money" in the years leading up to the War. Still, several of our later offensives were supported by 4,000,000 rounds apiece, the total weight of shell being MUCH more than the French because of our greater reliance on heavier guns. The French relied greatly on their famous fast-firing 75 but its shell was only 15 pounds. Our lightest Field gun in actual front-line service was the 18-pdr.
Regarding the 106 fuse, there were several variants of it, but they all provided an instantaneous detonation. My old friend Sgt. Angus Kellie was with one of the Siege batteries at Gaza, then again at Jerusalem, Armageddon and the run into Damascus. He told me that, before Gaza, they unloaded and piled ammo for the 100-pdrs (Howitzer 6-inch Mark VIII) for a month without stopping, then fired it all off in 4 days (2 crews to the gun) of non-stop bombardment, alternating clearing the Wire and making life rough for Johnny Turk. Then the Tanks started up, the massed Vickers guns opened fire, the Infantry started out of their trenches, the Hows lowered their sights to finish the Turkish trenches..... and Johnny Turk just did not exist any more.
And it's almost all forgotten now.
Supermen, that's what they were, in the factories, the trenches, the navy, the air service, the artillery. Supermen. And a few of us are so very lucky to have met a few of them.
God rest you, Sergeant Angus Kellie, 51st Div. Siege Train, BEF and 380 Siege Battery, 60 Division, Palestine Expeditionary Force 1915 - 1921.
.
Their commercial stuff about 1979/80 was plain dangerous at both ends. At the Gander club, a pulldown on 20 rounds of brand-new .30-30WCF revealed charges from roughly 1.5 times MAX, all the way down to ZERO... in the same box. Only thing that saved at least one guy's rifle was the fact that the primers were bum as well. Their .303 was even worse, if you can even believe that. I wrote a newspaper article on their lousy brass and they tried to sue me. My boss sent them the actual cases I had photographed for the article, along with the info that they could keep these ones because we still had 300 more to go to court with. Suddenly, no more talk of lawsuits: huge advertising contract instead! I still have 50 or 100 rounds of their out-of-spec brass around here somewhere.
Back to the OP here. What great photographs! Just thinking of the sheer number of rounds made inspires plain awe. In the French Army, they fired 7,000,000 rounds of artillery ammunition before the Nivelle Offensive alone. In our Army, arty ammo was very much at a premium for the first half of the War. In 1915, guns SUPPORTING ATTACKS were restricted to 2 rounds per gun per day. The result was the massacre of a generation.... all because a penny-wise and pound-foolish Government wanted to "save money" in the years leading up to the War. Still, several of our later offensives were supported by 4,000,000 rounds apiece, the total weight of shell being MUCH more than the French because of our greater reliance on heavier guns. The French relied greatly on their famous fast-firing 75 but its shell was only 15 pounds. Our lightest Field gun in actual front-line service was the 18-pdr.
Regarding the 106 fuse, there were several variants of it, but they all provided an instantaneous detonation. My old friend Sgt. Angus Kellie was with one of the Siege batteries at Gaza, then again at Jerusalem, Armageddon and the run into Damascus. He told me that, before Gaza, they unloaded and piled ammo for the 100-pdrs (Howitzer 6-inch Mark VIII) for a month without stopping, then fired it all off in 4 days (2 crews to the gun) of non-stop bombardment, alternating clearing the Wire and making life rough for Johnny Turk. Then the Tanks started up, the massed Vickers guns opened fire, the Infantry started out of their trenches, the Hows lowered their sights to finish the Turkish trenches..... and Johnny Turk just did not exist any more.
And it's almost all forgotten now.
Supermen, that's what they were, in the factories, the trenches, the navy, the air service, the artillery. Supermen. And a few of us are so very lucky to have met a few of them.
God rest you, Sergeant Angus Kellie, 51st Div. Siege Train, BEF and 380 Siege Battery, 60 Division, Palestine Expeditionary Force 1915 - 1921.
.
Other than Gallipoli and the fall of Jerusalem, the history of WW1 in the middle east is quite obscure. There is a very well maintained Commonwealth War Cemetary in Damascus which can only be accessed via back lanes and tracks. It contains the dead of the fighting around Damascus and the pursuit to Allepo. We Cdn UN troops in Damascus used to participate in an annual Remembrance Day ceremony there. It was sponsored by the British Embassy and was well attended by the diplomatic community, with both Christian and Moslem clergy officiating. There is also a less attractive Cemetary in Gaza where Cdn troops used to conduct an annual Remembrance Day ceremony. With no Cdn troops in the middle east anymore I wonder what happens now.
Any ANZAC troopie I knew in the middle east made sure that they got in a visit to Gallipoli which has the same level of significance for them as Vimy does for us.
I used to know a Royal Navy vet who had served at Gallipoli and used to enjoy telling tales about it. One of his favourites was about the Turkish POWs aboard ship lowering tin cans on strings to get water for their arse end ablutions.
Any ANZAC troopie I knew in the middle east made sure that they got in a visit to Gallipoli which has the same level of significance for them as Vimy does for us.
I used to know a Royal Navy vet who had served at Gallipoli and used to enjoy telling tales about it. One of his favourites was about the Turkish POWs aboard ship lowering tin cans on strings to get water for their arse end ablutions.
Purple, I thank you for that. It is good to know that someone remembers.
An intimation: Sgt. Kellie told me that there were only three things in this world that he hated: Fray Bentos corned beef, Camels and Field Marshal Haig. There were reasons for all three. The Fray Bentos he hated because he had been issued a 2-pound tin of the stuff every day for six years: a mite excessive, one might say. He hated Camels because they are vicious, fractious and unruly beasts which stink; he far preferred his 75-horse Holt Caterpillar gun tractor. And he hated Haig because he had seen some of the epic slaughter on the Western Front, so much of which could be laid directly at Haig's feet.
Jerusalem he was proud of, being that it was one of the great accomplishments of the War. It was also one in which he did not fire a single round. "Jerusalem," he said quietly one night, "is in a valley. What Allenby did was surround the city on three sides and dig in, right where Johnny Turk could see us. Then we drew up the guns and aimed them and piled the ammunition up.... and then we sat there and waited. Allenby didn't want to destroy Jerusalem because it's the Holy City in the Bible, but it's holy to the Turks, too, and they didn't want it destroyed. So, when Allenby left the back door wide open like he did, Johnny Turk just pulled out and headed North. Once he was gone, a delegation came out with a white flag and the city surrendered. Allenby rode his horse down to the city gate and got off and walked into the Holy City. I watched him do it through my glasses."
That description, coming from someone who was actually THERE, is powerful enough that I have remembered it now for over 40 years......... and now it's written down.
And a thing which some might think odd. Sgt. Kellie had no animosity whatever toward his old enemies, the Turks. In its place he had compassion and, I think, an admiration for the men on both sides with whom he had shared those awful years. That, I think, is the mark of a TRUE Warrior.
.
An intimation: Sgt. Kellie told me that there were only three things in this world that he hated: Fray Bentos corned beef, Camels and Field Marshal Haig. There were reasons for all three. The Fray Bentos he hated because he had been issued a 2-pound tin of the stuff every day for six years: a mite excessive, one might say. He hated Camels because they are vicious, fractious and unruly beasts which stink; he far preferred his 75-horse Holt Caterpillar gun tractor. And he hated Haig because he had seen some of the epic slaughter on the Western Front, so much of which could be laid directly at Haig's feet.
Jerusalem he was proud of, being that it was one of the great accomplishments of the War. It was also one in which he did not fire a single round. "Jerusalem," he said quietly one night, "is in a valley. What Allenby did was surround the city on three sides and dig in, right where Johnny Turk could see us. Then we drew up the guns and aimed them and piled the ammunition up.... and then we sat there and waited. Allenby didn't want to destroy Jerusalem because it's the Holy City in the Bible, but it's holy to the Turks, too, and they didn't want it destroyed. So, when Allenby left the back door wide open like he did, Johnny Turk just pulled out and headed North. Once he was gone, a delegation came out with a white flag and the city surrendered. Allenby rode his horse down to the city gate and got off and walked into the Holy City. I watched him do it through my glasses."
That description, coming from someone who was actually THERE, is powerful enough that I have remembered it now for over 40 years......... and now it's written down.
And a thing which some might think odd. Sgt. Kellie had no animosity whatever toward his old enemies, the Turks. In its place he had compassion and, I think, an admiration for the men on both sides with whom he had shared those awful years. That, I think, is the mark of a TRUE Warrior.
.
- Location
- WMU247 near Edmonton
the guns, the sheer logistics of feeding those things is frightening. 300 rds/gun/day for an assualt, at the Corps level is a huge load of ammo, all hauled up by train truck and horse, and stockpiled all over the place. And it was not unusual to pound an objective for several days
No kidding. This is just one of many piles of 18 pdr brass from the battle of the Somme. Now add to that 4.5", 6", 8", 9.2" and 15" howitzers, 60 pdr guns, some 13 pdr guns and railway guns (on the order of 13.5"). One estimate I read said that one billion artillery shells were fired on the Western front in WW1, 10% of which were gas shells. Overall, 10% of them were duds. The Belgian Army still has an EOD company whose sole job it is to deal with WW1 and WW2 duds.
Thanks for the pics.
My Grandmother made and tested Bren guns, Browning HP's, and grenade parts under similar conditions during the Second World War. It's always nice to see forgotten pictures from another era.
Smellie... I hope you write everything you know and have seen in a book somewhere, someday. I'd love to read it.
My Grandmother made and tested Bren guns, Browning HP's, and grenade parts under similar conditions during the Second World War. It's always nice to see forgotten pictures from another era.
Smellie... I hope you write everything you know and have seen in a book somewhere, someday. I'd love to read it.
