Double Action Snubby

Ganderite

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Thanks to a thread posted here earlier, I got interested in trying to shoot a revolver double action. I used to do it, years ago, shooting a tricked out Smith in PPC competition.

But my regular revolvers are nothing like that special revolver.

I tried shooting my service type revolvers double action and found the results were much, much better than I expected. At 25 yards I could actually keep all my shots on paper.

So then I decided to try my fixed-sight snubbies. I will eventually try them all (about 15 of them in 38Spl) on this target, and note where the group forms when shooting a brisk (not staged) double action. I should be shouting "Get off my lawn!" as I do the test. You know what i mean.

The Smith M60 and Ruger SP101 had best triggers. The Colt Cobra felt the worst, although the results were excellent.

For reference, the circle on the target is 12". I get the feeling that if I knew where to aim with each snubby, I could put all the shots into the circle.

Smith & Wesson M60 DAO
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Colt Cobra
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Charter Arms Undercover
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Ruger SP101 3"
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Reminds me of the fun I used to have with my M38 steel Bodyguard. I gave it a trip back to S&W(when that was easy to do) They slicked the DA so well. With the shrouded hammer it was made for DA, but not as delivered. It was considerably out of time. Ah, but when it returned, it was though it was reinvented. I used the same 148g. wadcutters I used in my 52 with excellent results.
 
Excellent report. In Mexico, pretty much everyone I knew socially that was close to me carried, and generally what they carried was a S&W or Colt snubby. There were some people carrying .380 autos, but since the average businessman or young-lady-about-town was certainly going to be "visited" by cartel or bit-players pretending to be cartel the power thing is a real concern. If things were to get serious in a bad way, the other side will have MUCH more firepower than the average civilian is going to be able to carry around (at the same time avoiding scrutiny by the authorities who will certainly react negatively if they see you are carrying). Generally -- in my own experience -- when they told you that you needed to pay some protection money, you politely declined and indicated that you "took care of your own protection". In my case, that went okay. In the experience of my close associates, it also went okay. For the people I knew of for whom it did not go okay, they were not around afterwards to let us all know where things went wrong. But generally, you will have a 5 or 6 shot snubby using the hottest .38 Special ammo you can load. You might also have the advantage of surprise, since most people remain unarmed except for those who choose not to be victims. Right here and right now, let me state that most people will choose to be victims rather than break a law that will punish them for carrying illegally, even if that punishment is a rather minor inconvenience compared to the alternative. At least, that is what I saw and continue to see everytime I revisit Central Mexico.

My own snubby is a Model 49 no dash with a flat latch. A quite strong little snubby, I usually load it with a 160 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter cast bullet that is not cast especially hard, lubricated with either Lee liquid alox or the RCBS lubestick Pistol alox and sized to .358 diameter loaded over 4.5 grains of Bullseye Powder.

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The gun generally resides in my right-front pocket in a Bianchi "Pistol Pocket" holster.

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This holster has served me very well, having carried the gun fulltime, everyday over a 10 year period in a rather hot environment. I brought the holster itself back here to Canada with me, and every time my wife and I return to Mexico my sister-in-law meets us at the airport with our snubbies. My wife "purse carries" hers in a Ray's Holsters Concealed Carry purse (which Mexican Secret Service failed to detect when they inspected her before a meeting she had with Margarita Zavala, the wife of then Mexican President Filipe Calderon in 2012 in my wife's office in Guanajuato at the time). The holster keeps the snubby from shifting around and allows a good grasp when I need it.

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Once pocketed, you're good to go. It took me about 5 months or so in 2008 when I started carrying (just after bad guys threw hand grenades into a crowd of women and children on Sept. 15 during Independence Day celebrations in Morelia, Michoacan) to forget I even had it with me. After that, I don't really even think about it much even when I go back. Maybe a day or two, but it's more the weight and the rubbing on the front part of the thigh that now takes getting used to as opposed to the "OMG, I'm carrying....".

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The untucked shirt in a proper Miami Vice color completes the package. You are ready to run your small business in Mexico!

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As all my friends carry, I got to shoot and play with a really large variety of snubby revolvers in the last 10 years. Since we go back to Mexico every February/March, I get to play with them again. We found that the S&W revovlers tend to shoot to POI using 158 grain Lead bullets pretty regularly. Maybe sometimes, they hit a bit low requiring some metal shaving off the front sight, but not often. My wife's Model 60 no dash is bang on, as is one of my best friend's old-style Model 40.

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Since I took this photo, he has "pinned out" the grip safety, which is a feature the original gun allowed you to do. Use it, or not use it. I took this photo the night he got it, so it was unpinned at the time.

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Colt revolvers, such as this classic Detective Special, are also very, very popular. My own daughter prefers her's over our S&W snubbies. Her Detective shoots just a bit to the left at 10 yards, by about 2 inches. I keep swearing to file off one side of the front sight, and I will when we move back there and I have a range on my property to be able to take my time and do it right. In the meantime, hers is in stock form. This one pictured belongs to another friend and was formerly Phil Roettinger's, the former head of the CIA in Latin America.

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In Mexican Combat Club matches, there is always a "Snubby Side Event". Usually a 30 round course, shot out to 30 yards. Most shooting is closer up, 3 yards, 5 yards and 10 yards. I think only 5 shots are fired at 30 yards. I have a copy around here somewhere of the Mexican rules -- which are basically the IPSC 2006 rulebook and the NRA Action Pistol rulebook from the same time-period unceremoniously combined and translated into Spanish -- but digging them up is more trouble than it's worth right now. Pretty much all shooting is specified as double-action and anyway the time-limits don't permit a lot of thumbcocking anyway. This Model 60 with Laser Grips has had the hammer ground off -- a common alteration since one may well be firing through a pocket (in real life, not in some silly match).

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Popular also are the 2.5 inch .357 guns that have been remarked and registered as .38 Special revolvers. This due to the fact that with Mexico's caliber restrictions, the .357 is VERBOTTEN. But that doesn't stop anyone. This 2.5 inch Python, perfectly remarked as a Diamondback, is better carried by one of the ladies in a purse holster as it's a bit big to hide well under a light shirt in the heat of the Mexican summer. In matches, these larger revolvers -- as well as the 2-inch Model 15 with adjustable sights -- shoot in the "super snubby" class. They have a box for "snubby" and "super snubby". In fact, a Model 10 roundbutt just barely fits into the snubby box with stock roundbutt grips. Putting larger fitting rubber shoes on it would kick you up into the super snubby class. I never had a super snubby, although I covet one and might go for a remarked Python when I move back there. They are sort of sweet! But not really snubbies, in the classical sense.

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I'm glad you are testing your snubbies. Let us all know your results. I love the damned things myself and have carried mine a lot more than any other firearm, into thick and thin and all over the place in Central Mexico during lots of times of heightened tensions. They certainly aren't enough, but if they are all you have they are certainly better than nothing.
 
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Excellent report. In Mexico, pretty much everyone I knew socially that was close to me carried, and generally what they carried was a S&W or Colt snubby. There were some people carrying .380 autos, but since the average businessman or young-lady-about-town was certainly going to be "visited" by cartel or bit-players pretending to be cartel the power thing is a real concern. If things were to get serious in a bad way, the other side will have MUCH more firepower than the average civilian is going to be able to carry around (at the same time avoiding scrutiny by the authorities who will certainly react negatively if they see you are carrying). Generally -- in my own experience -- when they told you that you needed to pay some protection money, you politely declined and indicated that you "took care of your own protection". In my case, that went okay. In the experience of my close associates, it also went okay. For the people I knew of for whom it did not go okay, they were not around afterwards to let us all know where things went wrong. But generally, you will have a 5 or 6 shot snubby using the hottest .38 Special ammo you can load. You might also have the advantage of surprise, since most people remain unarmed except for those who choose not to be victims. Right here and right now, let me state that most people will choose to be victims rather than break a law that will punish them for carrying illegally, even if that punishment is a rather minor inconvenience compared to the alternative. At least, that is what I saw and continue to see everytime I revisit Central Mexico.

My own snubby is a Model 49 no dash with a flat latch. A quite strong little snubby, I usually load it with a 160 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter cast bullet that is not cast especially hard, lubricated with either Lee liquid alox or the RCBS lubestick Pistol alox and sized to .358 diameter loaded over 4.5 grains of Bullseye Powder.

GGECjJO.jpg


The gun generally resides in my right-front pocket in a Bianchi "Pistol Pocket" holster.

VsA2w9C.jpg


This holster has served me very well, having carried the gun fulltime, everyday over a 10 year period in a rather hot environment. I brought the holster itself back here to Canada with me, and every time my wife and I return to Mexico my sister-in-law meets us at the airport with our snubbies. My wife "purse carries" hers in a Ray's Holsters Concealed Carry purse (which Mexican Secret Service failed to detect when they inspected her before a meeting she had with Margarita Zavala, the wife of then Mexican President Filipe Calderon in 2012 in my wife's office in Guanajuato at the time). The holster keeps the snubby from shifting around and allows a good grasp when I need it.

jrSnWjd.jpg


Once pocketed, you're good to go. It took me about 5 months or so in 2008 when I started carrying (just after bad guys threw hand grenades into a crowd of women and children on Sept. 15 during Independence Day celebrations in Morelia, Michoacan) to forget I even had it with me. After that, I don't really even think about it much even when I go back. Maybe a day or two, but it's more the weight and the rubbing on the front part of the thigh that now takes getting used to as opposed to the "OMG, I'm carrying....".

HoCT8pW.jpg

I see you use the Pachmayr grip filler. My bodyguard loved the Pachmayr Signature. Filled my medium sized hand just right. No pics. Sold in a weak moment.
 
Mine is actually the Tyler T-Grip filler. My daughter's Colt Detective has the Pachmayr grip filler, copying exactly Phil Roettinger's gun although my daughter's grips are smooth wood with the Colt Medallion. I don't have a photo of it right now, but when we are back in Mexico in early next year I will try to get a photo of it. But without some sort of grip filler, using full-power loads with the little guns hurts the hand quite a bit. At least, with me it does.
 
Some of my snubbies have the grip filler. It really makes the gun more comfortable with the factory grip in my large hands.

Most of them have an after market rubber grip which is also more comfortable, but usually bigger than factory. In CCW that would be an issue.
 
Some of my snubbies have the grip filler. It really makes the gun more comfortable with the factory grip in my large hands.

Most of them have an after market rubber grip which is also more comfortable, but usually bigger than factory. In CCW that would be an issue.

I use a spegel boot grip on my J frames. Much easier to shoot, with minimal bulk added. - dan
 
"My own snubby is a Model 49 no dash with a flat latch. A quite strong little snubby, I usually load it with a 160 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter cast bullet that is not cast especially hard, lubricated with either Lee liquid alox or the RCBS lubestick Pistol alox and sized to .358 diameter loaded over 4.5 grains of Bullseye Powder."


That is a super hot load. I hope you don't practice with that load. It is probably way over pressure.....

If I had to shoot 357 type loads in a 38SPL, I would use the Ruger SP101 in 38Spl. I am told that other than being a bit shorter, the cylinder in the 38 is the same as the 357. I have shot a lot of 357 type loads in it, using 38Spl brass.

I stopped because I knew that sooner or later one of those hot loads would accidently get into a 38.

The 38SPl Ruger SP101 might be rare. Mine is the only one I have seen. I saw it for $250 at the gun store in Port Perry, and figured that, at that price, I had to give it a good home. It is a very nice shooter. Because it is heavy.
 
"My own snubby is a Model 49 no dash with a flat latch. A quite strong little snubby, I usually load it with a 160 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter cast bullet that is not cast especially hard, lubricated with either Lee liquid alox or the RCBS lubestick Pistol alox and sized to .358 diameter loaded over 4.5 grains of Bullseye Powder."


That is a super hot load. I hope you don't practice with that load. It is probably way over pressure.....

If I had to shoot 357 type loads in a 38SPL, I would use the Ruger SP101 in 38Spl. I am told that other than being a bit shorter, the cylinder in the 38 is the same as the 357. I have shot a lot of 357 type loads in it, using 38Spl brass.

I stopped because I knew that sooner or later one of those hot loads would accidently get into a 38.

The 38SPl Ruger SP101 might be rare. Mine is the only one I have seen. I saw it for $250 at the gun store in Port Perry, and figured that, at that price, I had to give it a good home. It is a very nice shooter. Because it is heavy.

Although I never practiced a lot with that load, I certainly shot enough of them. Older loading manuals (some of which I have still) show 5.0 grains of Bullseye with a 158 as a maximum, although it is generally accepted in the shooting/reloading community that this particular version of the Speer manual was "out to lunch" on some of their recommended loads.

Two different individuals of whom I knew very well that worked in the S&W plant during the late '50's, and early to mid-60's told me that any model number marked .38 Special Steel framed S&W revolver was heat treated to the same specs as the .357's to avoid "accidents" in the factory. A Model 19 and a Model 15 frame are just so similar -- as is a Model 10 and a Model 13 (etc., etc.) that this just makes sense. Why have two different heat-treatment requirements when one will do it all? Although I have never SEEN this accepted in print, I personally don't think they were lying when they said it. At the same time, if you want to go and load your model number marked Model 10-4 up to .357 specs, understand that I am not recommending that you try it. That's on you. I, personally, would advise against it.

At the same time, in Mexico we load the .38 Special case up to .357 specs using Elmer's old load of 13.5 grains of 2400 powder over a standard primer and a 170 grain 358429 style SWC for about 1350 fps from a 6 inch barrel and 1280 or so from a 4 incher. This load is used in the Heavy Duty N-frame .38's as well as .357's that are remarked to pass as .38 Special revolvers. When we started this practice we did not do anything to "instantly identify" the Heavy Duty .38 loads from the mild factory power type loads. I saw a friend of mine fire 6 Heavy Duty .38 loads that he "borrowed" from my gun bag through his 6 inch Model 14-4 revolver with no problems other than the loud noise and crazy recoil. They were "one thumb ejected" with no particular signs of pressure. Proof? Well, no, but certainly interesting. At that point -- all over the country -- we advised "the faithful" to start marking Heavy Duty loadings with a permanent red marker on the primer. There have been no problems since.

I would not recommend firing Heavy Duty .38 loadings in regular .38 Special revolvers in any case, and certainly not in aluminum framed snubbies. I do not consider the 4.5 grain of Bullseye load an overload (myself, personally) but I would call it a Maximum Load that should be approached with some care and used sparingly. Massad Ayoob fired about 2,500 +P loads through an aluminum snubby trying to destroy it, without success. But still....

As to the 14.2 ounce (or so) scandium revolvers that are out now, firing anything more than regular .38 Special is painful. I tried -- once -- to fire the standard Mexican snubby course stage of "draw and fire 2 shots on target A and B and 1 headshot it target C at 5 yards -- reload -- and repeat in 18 seconds" using a load of 4.3 grains of Bullseye with a 160 SWC and can say it will bring tears to your eyes using a Scandium Snubby unless you are much tougher than I am. I was using one of the several S&W M&P Bodyguards that came into the country via a diplomatic passport from an Eastern European country, the possessor of which instantly became a real "friend of the Club" to use Sons of Anarchy terminology. Those things are very light and I am sure a breeze to carry but I will stick with my full weight Model 49 no dash.*

*Another thing mentioned to me from one or another of my friends who actually worked at the plant was that the original "no dash" revolvers -- indicating manufacture as close as possible to the 1957 date when the "new heat treating processes" were put into place -- were the hardest steel revolvers S&W put out. After that first run, they toned it down a bit to save the cutters. The hardest revolver, according to both of them, was the original Model 60 no dash. My wife has one. I think two other friends also have one as they are coveted and most people -- at least in Mexico -- are unaware of this possible advantage to that particular model. In our group we actively seek out "no dash" models in the snubbies, and if one is found it is bought immediately for someone in the group if not ourselves (although, there are always new people coming in who are looking as well).

Obviously, any S&W revolver without a model number marking on the crane is probably pre-1957 and is not heat-treated to the "new specs" and should be used with factory power ammo (non +P) in the .38 Special caliber unless it is marked .357 Magnum, which of course, was always treated to the higher spec.
 
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I like my 20 oz, aluminum K framed, 2" S&W model 12-2 Airweight (upper left).

It is bigger than a J frame but is has the advantage of the flat main spring which gives it that amazingly smooth and light DA and SA trigger pull.

My model 19-5 (lower right) feels like a tank to carry in comparison.

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Although I never practiced a lot with that load, I certainly shot enough of them. Older loading manuals (some of which I have still) show 5.0 grains of Bullseye with a 158 as a maximum, although it is generally accepted in the shooting/reloading community that this particular version of the Speer manual was "out to lunch" on some of their recommended loads.

Two different individuals of whom I knew very well that worked in the S&W plant during the late '50's, and early to mid-60's told me that any model number marked .38 Special Steel framed S&W revolver was heat treated to the same specs as the .357's to avoid "accidents" in the factory. A Model 19 and a Model 15 frame are just so similar -- as is a Model 10 and a Model 13 (etc., etc.) that this just makes sense. Why have two different heat-treatment requirements when one will do it all? Although I have never SEEN this accepted in print, I personally don't think they were lying when they said it. At the same time, if you want to go and load your model number marked Model 10-4 up to .357 specs, understand that I am not recommending that you try it. That's on you. I, personally, would advise against it.

At the same time, in Mexico we load the .38 Special case up to .357 specs using Elmer's old load of 13.5 grains of 2400 powder over a standard primer and a 170 grain 358429 style SWC for about 1350 fps from a 6 inch barrel and 1280 or so from a 4 incher. This load is used in the Heavy Duty N-frame .38's as well as .357's that are remarked to pass as .38 Special revolvers. When we started this practice we did not do anything to "instantly identify" the Heavy Duty .38 loads from the mild factory power type loads. I saw a friend of mine fire 6 Heavy Duty .38 loads that he "borrowed" from my gun bag through his 6 inch Model 14-4 revolver with no problems other than the loud noise and crazy recoil. They were "one thumb ejected" with no particular signs of pressure. Proof? Well, no, but certainly interesting. At that point -- all over the country -- we advised "the faithful" to start marking Heavy Duty loadings with a permanent red marker on the primer. There have been no problems since.

I would not recommend firing Heavy Duty .38 loadings in regular .38 Special revolvers in any case, and certainly not in aluminum framed snubbies. I do not consider the 4.5 grain of Bullseye load an overload (myself, personally) but I would call it a Maximum Load that should be approached with some care and used sparingly. Massad Ayoob fired about 2,500 +P loads through an aluminum snubby trying to destroy it, without success. But still....

As to the 14.2 ounce (or so) scandium revolvers that are out now, firing anything more than regular .38 Special is painful. I tried -- once -- to fire the standard Mexican snubby course stage of "draw and fire 2 shots on target A and B and 1 headshot it target C at 5 yards -- reload -- and repeat in 18 seconds" using a load of 4.3 grains of Bullseye with a 160 SWC and can say it will bring tears to your eyes using a Scandium Snubby unless you are much tougher than I am. I was using one of the several S&W M&P Bodyguards that came into the country via a diplomatic passport from an Eastern European country, the possessor of which instantly became a real "friend of the Club" to use Sons of Anarchy terminology. Those things are very light and I am sure a breeze to carry but I will stick with my full weight Model 49 no dash.*

*Another thing mentioned to me from one or another of my friends who actually worked at the plant was that the original "no dash" revolvers -- indicating manufacture as close as possible to the 1957 date when the "new heat treating processes" were put into place -- were the hardest steel revolvers S&W put out. After that first run, they toned it down a bit to save the cutters. The hardest revolver, according to both of them, was the original Model 60 no dash. My wife has one. I think two other friends also have one as they are coveted and most people -- at least in Mexico -- are unaware of this possible advantage to that particular model. In our group we actively seek out "no dash" models in the snubbies, and if one is found it is bought immediately for someone in the group if not ourselves (although, there are always new people coming in who are looking as well).

Obviously, any S&W revolver without a model number marking on the crane is probably pre-1957 and is not heat-treated to the "new specs" and should be used with factory power ammo (non +P) in the .38 Special caliber unless it is marked .357 Magnum, which of course, was always treated to the higher spec.

This is very interesting information.

I recently loaded a batch of 38Spl at max load using Power Pistol. i wanted to see how the various guns felt shooting "real" ammo.

The S&B primers extruded onto the firing pin and bound up the revolvers. Pressure is ok - but not with those primers. I guess magnum primers would solve the problem.

I was thinking of the primer problem when I was concerned about your hot load.
 
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