Double Action Snubby

Jumping back to the speedloader part of the thread, I had the opportunity to get a K-frame out to the range along with an assortment of .38 to try left-hand reloading (henceforth IPSC style, as opposed to PPC style with the speedloader in the right hand).

A misspent youth at PPC matches means the instinct to do it that way is strong, especially so as the first part (fire last shot, right thumb opens latch, left hand catches the cylinder and pulls back on the ejector rod) is the same. However, at this point the right hand maintains shooting grip while the left hand goes for a speedloader now on that side of my belt. I found that the left hand is much more awkward IPSC-loading PPC rounds with the wadcutters down inside the cases, having to line up the case mouths with the cylinder holes, but if you're shooting IPSC then normal bullets sanely seated with a nice normal curve that actually want to find their way into a cylinder are a wonderful thing. Having the right index finger through the frame helping hold the cylinder full open helps, but it turns out the cylinder latch can painfully pinch it when the left hand pushes the cylinder closed if you don't actively pull your finger out of the way at the same time. Left hand gives cylinder that little twirl-to-lock and you're sighting on the next target as the left hand comes back into shooting support.

So there's more to it than left-vs-right; the PPC mob needs the extra time and dexterity to load their awful wadcutters!
 
Ganderite said:
The view of the back of the steel target is interesting, but I don't see how it is retained in the "up" position, and how it gets released by a good hit.
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I will try to get you a photo of that. May take a bit, have to send request to Mexico and then wait for someone to do it and reply. But it will happen. Early versions were just a steel lip that the top target ring rested on and was not adjustable. Because the targets are really heavy and nobody wanted it falling, it was always "full on" to the lip. So you had to really clang the thing to be sure it would fall. Later versions have a system to adjust the amount of lip contact so lighter loads will drop them.

From nearly the start, there were two "eye rings" welded on either side of the front of the target (thus, not visible in either photo I have here as the photo of Don Ramon is with Hadji #1) that wires can be attached to. The target is heavy, and when it falls it can really yank a wire, thus allowing it to be used to open or close doors or windows or activate other mechanical devices to enhance a "Hogan's Alley". And it's all reactive. Normally, they are set to fall for a .38 Special 130 grain Factory round from Aguila, the most common load used in Mexico. The .380 ACP factory round is a bit lighter, so you would probably need two quick shots unless you hit the target higher up. I will try to get more photos of the target. Their main use was always to be a "stage device" to activate props on the Hogan's Alley type courses and for that they work excellently. Regular Pepper Poppers are easier to work with and less likely to fall on you when you are setting them.

The "tink tink" crowd complains that all reactive targets should be set to fall for the .380 ACP factory round, which is what the LAW restricts civilians to use in Semi-autos. Fine, I get their point, but any reactive target set that lightly will fall in the lightest of winds. And anyways, it's just a "tink tink" round in that power level. Mexican IPSC matches (the ones in Queretaro/San Miguel -- there are other Clubs not affiliated with us that don't use our system) score targets as Major, Minor and Mouse.

Major is 5, 4 and 2. Minor is 5, 3, and 1. Mouse is 5, 2 and 1. If you are "Mouse" (from Mouse-gun) you do not have to knock over the metal targets to score, but must hit them twice which makes a tink-tink sound. Thus, people who choose to remain in that group instead of working their way out of it through custom gunsmithing and basic reloading are often referred to as "the tink tink" crowd.
 
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old303 said:
Jumping back to the speedloader part of the thread, I had the opportunity to get a K-frame out to the range along with an assortment of .38 to try left-hand reloading (henceforth IPSC style, as opposed to PPC style with the speedloader in the right hand).

A misspent youth at PPC matches means the instinct to do it that way is strong, especially so as the first part (fire last shot, right thumb opens latch, left hand catches the cylinder and pulls back on the ejector rod) is the same. However, at this point the right hand maintains shooting grip while the left hand goes for a speedloader now on that side of my belt. I found that the left hand is much more awkward IPSC-loading PPC rounds with the wadcutters down inside the cases, having to line up the case mouths with the cylinder holes, but if you're shooting IPSC then normal bullets sanely seated with a nice normal curve that actually want to find their way into a cylinder are a wonderful thing. Having the right index finger through the frame helping hold the cylinder full open helps, but it turns out the cylinder latch can painfully pinch it when the left hand pushes the cylinder closed if you don't actively pull your finger out of the way at the same time. Left hand gives cylinder that little twirl-to-lock and you're sighting on the next target as the left hand comes back into shooting support.

So there's more to it than left-vs-right; the PPC mob needs the extra time and dexterity to load their awful wadcutters!
Click to expand...

That is an excellent description of the 'load with left hand' method! Congrats on your open mindedness in trying it out.

Yes, wad cutters are NOT the ammo to use for this method. I use RNFPs and they go in pretty good. When I was really into the game, I used LSWCs because RNFPs did not exist until the advent of CAS made them popular.
 
Ganderite said:
The view of the back of the steel target is interesting, but I don't see how it is retained in the "up" position, and how it gets released by a good hit.
Click to expand...

The old SOF (Soldier of Fortune) dropping targets are much simpler in design and operation.

Then it was decided that the steel upright was a ricochet hazard and they ceased to be used, thereby solving a non-existent problem.

I think we are all gob-smacked (you might try introducing your Mexican companeros to this Newfie term) by the facilities you enjoy there. Amazing what big money can accomplish.

We, on the other mano are faced with ever increasing restrictions on what we can shoot and where on our ranges. Most clubs are hanging on, barely able to meet expenses.
 
This isn't related to the topic or the way this thread has evolved, but I appeal to readers for their input.

I recently bought a S&W .357 "Raptor", based on the S&W 686 SSR model. It has a 5" barrel with "Rappy" lazer engraved on the barrel and a Raptor dino on the frame.

It is not listed on the S&W web site and I cannot find any data beyond the usual factory specs.

Check the "Pistols and Revolvers" forum for a picture of the gun in question, kindly posted by a fellow Gun Nut.

If this is a 'limited edition', why and for whom was it ordered?
 
I am just leaving for work now, so let me say:

I hate you. I just hate you. I am so jealous! I have always covetted a Raptor since I first saw ads for the model. What an IDEAL S&W revolver for Mexican use. I am just so jealous. Please, post photos. (I still hate you.) Look forward to photos tonight after work. Please, pretty please.
 
I'm afraid that I am totally intimidated and frustrated by the process of posting pictures on CGN, as are many others.

But, the question still stands .... who, why, where did the "Raptor" come into being, and why with a 5" barrel?

In the unlikely event that I do not favour the revolver as much as you, you can have first dibs.

"Greater love hath no man ....". And you won't even be expected to grovel in gratitude .... ;>), mere adulation will suffice.
 
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Thanks, Ganderite!

"Rappy" certainly looks happy, doesn't he/she/it?

I think the gun has a really purposeful look about it, demanding to shot. And so shall it be done.

This is my first S&W with no firing pin on the hammer and MIM parts, like the trigger and hammer.

We have three other revolver shooters in our IPSC section, all of them shooting S&W "PRO" series revolvers in .357/.38 Spl. or 9mm. One loner who bought a 6" 686 .44 Spl. model.

The 8 rd guys rot my socks as I'm an inveterate six gunner from sway back. Oddly, they have more trouble reloading with moon clips than I do with Comp II speed loaders
 
Is the 6 shot cylinder moonclipped? I think not, but I am not sure. Is the front sight the removeable/interchangeable DX type? It looks like it is. Is it 1/10th inch or 1/8th inch? The 627 has a Gold Bead 1/10th inch DX sight that is not sold to the public, they will only sell you the 1/8th inch version. I tried to bribe the guy from SDX, who makes them into selling me one (since I really had a 627) and was politely told "no".
 
calmex said:
Is the 6 shot cylinder moonclipped? I think not, but I am not sure. Is the front sight the removeable/interchangeable DX type? It looks like it is. Is it 1/10th inch or 1/8th inch? The 627 has a Gold Bead 1/10th inch DX sight that is not sold to the public, they will only sell you the 1/8th inch version. I tried to bribe the guy from SDX, who makes them into selling me one (since I really had a 627) and was politely told "no".
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"Rappy" is a true six shooter and not set up for moon clips. I just happen to have 9 'L' frame speed loaders.

I'm hoping that the chamber mouths are chamfered like the SSR model. The front sight appears in the pic to be pinned and I presume 1/8". I'll likely paint it bright red.

Any thoughts on the MIM hammer and trigger? They seem to hold up well according to the scuttle butt on the S&W Forum.

"Rappy" might need a "Pappy Rappy" in .44 to keep him in line some day.

I tried to buy a replacement front sight for my wife's new Winchester/Miroku '73 Short Rifle. It came with a 1/10" gold bead that I loved. She wanted a larger 3/16" gold bead. None in Canada, so I called Lyman to be told that they didn't sell retail. I told them I'd be happy to buy from a dealer if I could. Reluctantly, they sold me the sight as if it was special dispensation from God.
 
My 627 was MIM and all was well. I have used various borrowed 627's in competition up in Las Vegas and they were all great. Chamber chamfering is easy enough to do, just don't screw it up.

I have a Winchester/Miroku '73 Short Rifle in .45 Colt for sale here in the store and they have one in .357 up in Westbank that I had here for a while but I traded them. Beautiful rifle.
 
Which shop are you referring to?

Do you chamfer with the ejector star removed or in place?

None of other S&Ws have chamfering, so it may be moot. I've lived without it so far.

I've never wanted an 'L' frame before as I didn't like the look compared to my 'K' frame M66s and M19s, but I do like the rakish look of the "Raptor" and SSR.
 
Somewhere, I had photos of Michael chamfering his cylinder at the Marine Custom Shop in Queretaro. I think he had the star removed. MIM parts are sometimes a real advantage: the cylinders almost always perfectly pre-time, and often one can swap a 6 shot for a 7 shot cylinder and keep the same hand. SOMETIMES you need the 7-shot hand, other times not. We did this a lot, as there were 7-Shot .38 Special +P cylinders made for the Model 342 (or was it 242) that would not accept a .357 round. So, everytime we went to register an L-frame, we popped one of those cylinders in just in case the Registering Officer decided to check. Most of the time we were doing 6 shot guns and yet the 7 shot cylinders just dropped in and worked. Other times, not. I have photos of a lot of this, but they are at home and I am at work breaking all the rules by even being on here: but this thread is addictive and I cannot resist checking myself.
 
Can't tell from the pics ....

Is my "Raptor" going to have a square butt or round butt?

I'm hoping the latter as I have small paws and my 2-1/2" RB guns all have Hogue wood RB grips that fit to perfection.
 
Sharps '74 said:
Can't tell from the pics ....

Is my "Raptor" going to have a square butt or round butt?

I'm hoping the latter as I have small paws and my 2-1/2" RB guns all have Hogue wood RB grips that fit to perfection.
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All later production S&W is roundbutt except for (maybe) some of the "Classic" line, although even most of those are roundbutt with "roundbutt to squarebutt" grips mounted. Yours should be roundbutt.

On cylinder chamfering, I always did my own and used a Dremel. I removed the Star and did it separately as one must be more careful to not "knick the teeth". At the Marine Custom Shop, they use a special bit in a drill-press with a thingy they made up for holding the cylinders. On L and N cylinders, they just do the chamfering, and I don't think it matters if the cylinder is recessed or not. On K-frames, they have to remove the Star or the bit comes too close to the teeth. I think they do K-frame stars by hand.

They do a great job. I do a great job (because it's my own so I'm careful). Take your time. Remember: you can take it off but not put it back on. Go slow. You just want to break the sharp edge and put a bit of a bevel on there. It isn't rocket science but if you use a dremel, don't slip. And wear eye-protection.

Thanks for the offer to give me first shot if you don't like it, but since I am returning to Mexico in 3 years (or a bit less) I will not buy guns I cannot sell easily especially if there is a danger I could fall in love with one and decide to try to take it with me. I have no doubt I could make a Rappy that is sitting on a table here appear on a table there (like any decent magician). However: I promised my wife I would be a good boy, and I intend to keep that promise. In Mexico, if I end up back in my old position, that's different.

Rappy is not actually available -- as you stated -- in the U.S. . However, a 7-shot version of it which is identical in every way except for the 7-shot moonclipped cylinder and lack of the "Rappy" markings (Item #178038) is available in the U.S. from the Performance Center. Since a 6-shot cylinder can be easily obtained and installed and made to work, I would have the best of both worlds. A 6-shot cylinder for range use, and a 7-shot moonclipped cylinder for vehicle travel in areas where motorized dipsticks might pull up alongside demanding things at gunpoint. (The 627's weren't very useful for competitions restricted to 6 shots and moonclips are delicate for daily carry. But as something to use against a vehicle that is right there alongside you, a 7 or 8 shot gun that can be readily reloaded and is probably capable of penetrating any normal vehicle that has not been uparmored is a good thing to have. The "homemade Rappy" would be a neat thing to have.)
 
I have improved the forcing cones on a couple of my revolvers, including a 4" M29 that came to me badly leaded up in that area from too many high vel lead loads and poor cleaning.

The Brownell's kit works really well but like you said - take it easy! Can't put the metal back.

I'm hoping the "Raptor" cylinder will come chamfered as per the 686 SSR. Why wouldn't it?

So I take it the "Raptor" was a run made for Canada? Who initiated it and why with a 5" as opposed to a 4.2" barrel closer to the SSR configuration?

I don't feel handicapped with a six gun as the 7-8 shot guys tend to rely more on their 'fire power', ;>) than accuracy. Big deal. You gotta hit 'im to git 'im !!!
 
I think S&W initiated it as a run for the Canadian Market, but if some individual Dealer initiated it, good on them. We used to install 11 degree cones on the guns we used in Mexico. All ammo that we used was cast, or cast and powder coated. Everything has to be "smuggled in" to Mexico as there is no place where you can buy powder and primers. Legally, under Mexican Gun Laws, there could be but in or around 1998 the Mexican Army "decided" they would not allow it. It's not adviseable to challenge the Mexican Army, in court or otherwise. I bought up (me, personally) all the powder that was in all the stores that sold reloading equipment in central Guanajuato in 1998. That was all loaded and shot off by about Y2K. Anyway, NOBODY is going to allow you, or him, or her, to "import" bullets for reloading because they are heavy and look exactly like what they are and we (by "we", I mean all Mexican Sport Shooters who reload) can not afford to lose good smugglers just because you were too lazy to cast. Better that you take up golf and let the rest of us get on with it.

The 11 degree cones worked well with our cast bullets. We had the 18 degree cone to use an option, but I never tried it and don't know anyone who did because the guys at the Marine Custom Shop told us to go with 11. I mean, those guys aren't the best shots in the World (although one of them is amazing with the Shotgun stuff) by any means, but for some reason, we listened to them and they do simply brilliant work.

I think the 5 inch barrel is the ideal length (like, not talking "rules" here) for the Wee-fifty-seven. You can get a 160 SWC up to a real 1,300 fps + which can be done with 4 inches but it's an iffy thing, and we felt that a 160 or 170 at 1,300 would be fine on a car door 3 feet away. A 6 incher is a bit long and hard to move around in a car while you are yelling at the guy waving the gun at you that "I don't speak Spanish, what are you saying? What are you saying?" to get him to just wave the gun and not point it at you before you shoot him -- well -- in the B-zone. Then go for the driver, or the guy in back if he's armed. We worked on this scenario a lot, and a few people we knew lived it so we sort of knew how "it went down".

I think you've got the ideal revolver for "the real world". I'm not so sure about competition, but I'd use a 5 inch S&W in a Mexican PPC match no problem. I'd want the 1/10th inch front sight, though, and I am still really surprised yours isn't because most of the DX fronts Smith is using are 1/10th inch. I say check that again. (The 1/10th inch front sight fools your eye and gives you the same sight picture as a 1/8th inch front sight on a 6 1/2 or 7 inch barrel).
 
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