Is the Charter Arm's Snubby a 38 or 357 Mag or ? RJ
Double Action Snubby
- Thread starter Ganderite
- Start date
Here's a photo of the 7 shot Titanium 242Ti cylinders that came into Mexico in fairly decent quantity. There weren't a lot that ever hit the market that weren't in guns, but a lot of what did ended up South of the Border. They are .38 Special only 7-shot cylinders that fit the L-frame guns. Although steel 6-shot L-frame cylinders were apparently made in .38 Special only, we were never able to get our hands on one. These Ti cylinders work perfectly as the .357 round will not fit and allow the cylinder to close -- most important when registering guns in Mexico if they decide to check and see if your remarked Model 67 6-inch heavy barrel is really a .38 Special or not. Because of these, we found out quite accidently that the 7-shot cylinders often work perfectly on the 6-shot guns without changing anything. Other times, you might need to get and install a 7-shot hand, or just play around with a variety of hands until you get one to work with both cylinders. They sold for around 130.00 bucks U.S. at the time and came with the MIM Stars which happen to time so well in any of the MIM guns, and pretty well in the older ones for that matter. (People should remember that when I discuss loads or gunsmithing I am always talking from a Mexican point of view, not a Canadian one. In Mexico, you cannot sue someone for printing something that you decide to act upon and then hurt yourself because of it. Anything I mention as being something we did or have done is mentioned because we did it but if you decide to, the risk is yours. Just sayin'.)
The 242Ti was an 8 shot .38 Special snubby L-frame that looked a lot like a Model 638 but it was an L-frame and not a J-frame. I have never seen one, but I saw quite a few of those cylinders. I think I still have one I kept for myself in our parts kit in the loading room awaiting a "future project". My host and sponsor for the two Las Vegas shoots I went to in 2002 and 2003 was a bit of a gunsmith (and a former Manager of the SANDS! A Casino tour with him was eye-opening!) and he turned me on to these cylinders as a good way of getting a .38 Special cylinder for the L-frames, and he was right. But we learned a lot from them, too. Here's an internet image of the 242Ti.
The 242Ti was an 8 shot .38 Special snubby L-frame that looked a lot like a Model 638 but it was an L-frame and not a J-frame. I have never seen one, but I saw quite a few of those cylinders. I think I still have one I kept for myself in our parts kit in the loading room awaiting a "future project". My host and sponsor for the two Las Vegas shoots I went to in 2002 and 2003 was a bit of a gunsmith (and a former Manager of the SANDS! A Casino tour with him was eye-opening!) and he turned me on to these cylinders as a good way of getting a .38 Special cylinder for the L-frames, and he was right. But we learned a lot from them, too. Here's an internet image of the 242Ti.
By "shop", if you are asking where it is that I have a Winchester/Miroku 1873 in .45 Colt, it is the Oliver, B.C. Canadian Tire store where I work.
I'm really surprised that S&W would do a limited run for the Canadian market. But, I'm glad they did!
I'll see how I do with the factory front sight which I suspect is like all my other front sights. Same for the forcing cone. I'm an adherent of the "don't fix it if'n it ain't broke" philosophy. Seen too may good guns ruined that way.
I don't need to shoot top end loads for any purpose. All I need to make IPSC "Minor" with 158 gr bullets is 850 fps. That should be easily attained in an "L" frame gun with a 5" barrel. I used to make "Major" with my 4" M66 "K" frame, but it was a little bear to shoot in a 10 stage match. Once I get familiar with the gun, I'll step up to "Major" loads.
Remember the days of the Cooper "Power Pendulum"? A 1/2" "B" zone plate at 10 yds using Winchester factory ammo. The .38 Super could never quite make it with 130 FMJ bullets.
I'll see how I do with the factory front sight which I suspect is like all my other front sights. Same for the forcing cone. I'm an adherent of the "don't fix it if'n it ain't broke" philosophy. Seen too may good guns ruined that way.
I don't need to shoot top end loads for any purpose. All I need to make IPSC "Minor" with 158 gr bullets is 850 fps. That should be easily attained in an "L" frame gun with a 5" barrel. I used to make "Major" with my 4" M66 "K" frame, but it was a little bear to shoot in a 10 stage match. Once I get familiar with the gun, I'll step up to "Major" loads.
Remember the days of the Cooper "Power Pendulum"? A 1/2" "B" zone plate at 10 yds using Winchester factory ammo. The .38 Super could never quite make it with 130 FMJ bullets.
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I find .357 brass awfully stiff to eject from the M66 and wouldn't want to be fighting it on the IPSC timer; hopefully it's not pressure gluing it to the cylinder. I'm thinking I need to try again after giving the cylinder a good cleaning and not firing any .38 ahead of the .357 and creating that crud-ring that the front edge of the .357 brass would be sitting in.
When my M66 was my main IPSC gun, I shot .38 Spl. loads in practice (a lot of them!) but I finished every session with 50 Magnum loads.
Before a match the chambers got a thorough cleaning and I never had a problem with ejection.
I knew guys who shot a lot of PPC with .38 Spl. in their .357 Pythons. They were religious about chamber cleaning.
One thing I like about .38 Spl. in .357 chambers is that the ejector rod clears the cases from the cylinder very well, unlike the M19/M66 2-1/2" snubs with their short ejector rods.
Before a match the chambers got a thorough cleaning and I never had a problem with ejection.
I knew guys who shot a lot of PPC with .38 Spl. in their .357 Pythons. They were religious about chamber cleaning.
One thing I like about .38 Spl. in .357 chambers is that the ejector rod clears the cases from the cylinder very well, unlike the M19/M66 2-1/2" snubs with their short ejector rods.
A good video on shooting double action and loading a revolver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrLYZruNw_g&app=desktop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrLYZruNw_g&app=desktop
My CA is a 44 Special. - dan
If you're referring to his 'muzzle all over the place' gun handling, he'd he told to "Unload & Show Clear. Thanks for coming."
Back in the day, we turfed a lot of LEOs who were PPC shooters for breaking 90* with their muzzles during reloads. Doesn't matter if the gun is empty or not.
Calmex has covered this topic as done in Mexico. They are not IPSC in their approach and the 'PPC Dump' is allowed. Works for them.
One of our local revolver shooters (a LEO) is good and fast! Beats me very time with his 8 shot S&W "Pro Series" revolver. Last year he was turfed at a 10 hour away from home match for muzzle infraction using the 'PPC Dump' while on the move from "A" to "B". That's a long way to go to be turfed.
This the point I try to make re: keeping the revolver in the strong hand - you have better muzzle control during reloads.
Not adept with your left hand? Work on it! Most of us are trainable if we want to be. All it takes is some dummy rds and some speed loaders.
This applies mainly to competitive sport shooters. Otherwise, whatever works for you. As witnessed at that recent Texas church shooting, gun fights generally don't require reloads under stress.
"A gun fight is not settled by the first round fired nor the number of rounds fired. It is settled by the first round that finds the intended mark." Jeff Cooper
Back in the day, we turfed a lot of LEOs who were PPC shooters for breaking 90* with their muzzles during reloads. Doesn't matter if the gun is empty or not.
Calmex has covered this topic as done in Mexico. They are not IPSC in their approach and the 'PPC Dump' is allowed. Works for them.
One of our local revolver shooters (a LEO) is good and fast! Beats me very time with his 8 shot S&W "Pro Series" revolver. Last year he was turfed at a 10 hour away from home match for muzzle infraction using the 'PPC Dump' while on the move from "A" to "B". That's a long way to go to be turfed.
This the point I try to make re: keeping the revolver in the strong hand - you have better muzzle control during reloads.
Not adept with your left hand? Work on it! Most of us are trainable if we want to be. All it takes is some dummy rds and some speed loaders.
This applies mainly to competitive sport shooters. Otherwise, whatever works for you. As witnessed at that recent Texas church shooting, gun fights generally don't require reloads under stress.
"A gun fight is not settled by the first round fired nor the number of rounds fired. It is settled by the first round that finds the intended mark." Jeff Cooper
Since "summer" for me starts in less than 2 weeks as I will be returning to Central Mexico for a month, I am in pretty much daily contact with the Club members down there in anticipation of all the stuff we want to do and the beer we want to drink. News from there is either bad, good or indifferent. The bad news is that things are still very dangerous "out and about". Not a good thing, but also not unexpected. The current left-wing Government's idea that not confronting violent gangs is somehow going to work is ludicrous and obviously a total failure -- no matter how much they throw out the idea that we just need to wait a while longer to see progress. All leftists are the same it appears in their inability to understand that if something hasn't worked the last 20 times, it's probably not going to work tomorrow either.
Indifferent news is that the weather is still boringly nice. I cannot wait to get back to it, even if I will still have to return back here from it for a couple of years yet.
Good news is that SEDENA (the Mexican Army) is still registering the .300 Blackout rifles to members and the SEDENA Army store is even allowing sales of the Beretta MR1 rifle to shooters with a "known" history in the Clubs. When I left Mexico in 2016, the .223/.556 rifles were VERBOTTEN in any form other than bolt-action. This is a nice step forward, and since Mexico has no silly magazine restrictions I find it to be pleasant news.
The .300 Blackout is especially desireable (in my opinion) because it is a caliber not covered by the 1972-74 "Ley Federal de Armas de Fuego" and thus less likely to end up being suddenly "prohibited" again at a whim. Also, there is the suppressor thing: suppressors work very well with the cartridge when heavy bullets are fired subsonic (say the Lee 230 at 1000 fps) and suppressors are not actually regulated in Mexico. They are sold fairly openly, and "fabricated" in some of the better shops.
I was invited to visit one of these shops located on the road to Mexico City in 2015 while I was on a trophy-buying run for one of our upcoming matches. This...
must be turned into this...
...which is then matched with this...
...at which point it can either go directly onto a rifle, or with the addition of a recoil booster be mounted on a Semi-auto pistol. We worked quite a bit on mounting small Red Dot sights high enough to "look over" the suppressors. Although I did not have a suppressed firearm myself, I was quite involved in the work-up on the ideas and used a "sight mount" rear sight on my own Glock 19/25 in .380 Cal which gives you the option of using iron-sights or mounting the Red Dot as you please.
The Sight-mount sight without the Red Dot...
...and with the Red Dot.
The Glock pistols in .380 Cal firing a 135 to 142 grain bullet at around 980 to 1000 fps work amazingly well through these devices and function perfectly in Semi-Auto mode. They are very quiet. Quieter than Urban Legend says they are. At one of my "going away" parties when the Club knew I was returning to Canada for a 6 to 7 year term of Siberian conditions, some of the guys were firing this particular example (not my own) into a large outdoor pool so people inside the pool and hugging the wall while wearing diving masks could see the bullets enter the water and immediately slow down "Saving Private Ryan" style. This in the heart of a major city! This one has the recoil booster as well which is necessary to make them work although I understand that the Beretta 92 series sometimes will work without a booster if you play with the springs. Maybe. I haven't tried that myself. These are projects for when I return there in 2022. This photo taken on the patio of the pool-deck that we were firing into.
Anyway, that's all *Bling*. This is a snubby thread, so I have more snubby photos. We are trying to set up a "get together" to do some shooting with Snubby-guns in Mexico when I am there. Probably the "draw and shoot 5, reload, shoot 5 more" in 18 seconds at 5 yards like we have in the Snubby course. Maybe try with a S&W and a Colt D/S and see what we get. All double action. Asking around today, a friend has offered up his snubbies for the course.
He sends this photo of his Model 36, his Colt D/S and an older Model 34 Kit Gun. (We won't be using that one, we'll stick to the .38's.)
Another friend is offering up his Glock 28. This is a Mini-Glock in .380 based on the Mini-Glock 9mm Glock 26. (By installing a Lonewolf G26 slide and a G26 barrel with a short-chamber cut to a .380 Chamber with a 9mm lead-in, you can have your Glock 28 converted to .380 Cal which is equivilent to 9mm +P in power!) This one is factory .380.
My friend carries his with a "belt clip" and trigger protector. He uses the Critical Defense ammo. He's from a well-to-do family, and is thus a prime candidate for kidnapping. He prefers the 11 shots of the mini-Glock over the 5 shots of a J-frame or 6 shots of a D/S.
Another friend offers up his Walther PPK in .380!
All these guns "qualify" for the Snubby event under our rules as they will fit into the same box that allows the Colt D/S to fit, but excludes the S&W Model 10 round-butt. I had thought that we actually allowed the Model 10 R.B. in the Snubby class, but stand corrected that we do not. It is considered a "Super Snubby". But the Mini-Glocks apparently are snubby guns by our rules. I'm looking forward to this and will post the results of our little shoot here if we get to do it.
Indifferent news is that the weather is still boringly nice. I cannot wait to get back to it, even if I will still have to return back here from it for a couple of years yet.
Good news is that SEDENA (the Mexican Army) is still registering the .300 Blackout rifles to members and the SEDENA Army store is even allowing sales of the Beretta MR1 rifle to shooters with a "known" history in the Clubs. When I left Mexico in 2016, the .223/.556 rifles were VERBOTTEN in any form other than bolt-action. This is a nice step forward, and since Mexico has no silly magazine restrictions I find it to be pleasant news.
The .300 Blackout is especially desireable (in my opinion) because it is a caliber not covered by the 1972-74 "Ley Federal de Armas de Fuego" and thus less likely to end up being suddenly "prohibited" again at a whim. Also, there is the suppressor thing: suppressors work very well with the cartridge when heavy bullets are fired subsonic (say the Lee 230 at 1000 fps) and suppressors are not actually regulated in Mexico. They are sold fairly openly, and "fabricated" in some of the better shops.
I was invited to visit one of these shops located on the road to Mexico City in 2015 while I was on a trophy-buying run for one of our upcoming matches. This...
must be turned into this...
...which is then matched with this...
...at which point it can either go directly onto a rifle, or with the addition of a recoil booster be mounted on a Semi-auto pistol. We worked quite a bit on mounting small Red Dot sights high enough to "look over" the suppressors. Although I did not have a suppressed firearm myself, I was quite involved in the work-up on the ideas and used a "sight mount" rear sight on my own Glock 19/25 in .380 Cal which gives you the option of using iron-sights or mounting the Red Dot as you please.
The Sight-mount sight without the Red Dot...
...and with the Red Dot.
The Glock pistols in .380 Cal firing a 135 to 142 grain bullet at around 980 to 1000 fps work amazingly well through these devices and function perfectly in Semi-Auto mode. They are very quiet. Quieter than Urban Legend says they are. At one of my "going away" parties when the Club knew I was returning to Canada for a 6 to 7 year term of Siberian conditions, some of the guys were firing this particular example (not my own) into a large outdoor pool so people inside the pool and hugging the wall while wearing diving masks could see the bullets enter the water and immediately slow down "Saving Private Ryan" style. This in the heart of a major city! This one has the recoil booster as well which is necessary to make them work although I understand that the Beretta 92 series sometimes will work without a booster if you play with the springs. Maybe. I haven't tried that myself. These are projects for when I return there in 2022. This photo taken on the patio of the pool-deck that we were firing into.
Anyway, that's all *Bling*. This is a snubby thread, so I have more snubby photos. We are trying to set up a "get together" to do some shooting with Snubby-guns in Mexico when I am there. Probably the "draw and shoot 5, reload, shoot 5 more" in 18 seconds at 5 yards like we have in the Snubby course. Maybe try with a S&W and a Colt D/S and see what we get. All double action. Asking around today, a friend has offered up his snubbies for the course.
He sends this photo of his Model 36, his Colt D/S and an older Model 34 Kit Gun. (We won't be using that one, we'll stick to the .38's.)
Another friend is offering up his Glock 28. This is a Mini-Glock in .380 based on the Mini-Glock 9mm Glock 26. (By installing a Lonewolf G26 slide and a G26 barrel with a short-chamber cut to a .380 Chamber with a 9mm lead-in, you can have your Glock 28 converted to .380 Cal which is equivilent to 9mm +P in power!) This one is factory .380.
My friend carries his with a "belt clip" and trigger protector. He uses the Critical Defense ammo. He's from a well-to-do family, and is thus a prime candidate for kidnapping. He prefers the 11 shots of the mini-Glock over the 5 shots of a J-frame or 6 shots of a D/S.
Another friend offers up his Walther PPK in .380!
All these guns "qualify" for the Snubby event under our rules as they will fit into the same box that allows the Colt D/S to fit, but excludes the S&W Model 10 round-butt. I had thought that we actually allowed the Model 10 R.B. in the Snubby class, but stand corrected that we do not. It is considered a "Super Snubby". But the Mini-Glocks apparently are snubby guns by our rules. I'm looking forward to this and will post the results of our little shoot here if we get to do it.
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Almost glad to hear that the Mexicans have their issues with leftist government stupidity as do we. Canadians have yet to realize that logic, reason, common sense and "evidence decision making" have nothing to do with the civil disarmament agenda.
However, enough with the political bull sh!t ..... ;>)
I've tried to organize a "prohib" event here but being good red necks (nothing less than a .338 will drop a moose), very few have anything that qualifies. When they had the opportunity to register one, they balked and missed the boat.
Only way I get to use mine competitively is to shoot one in our IPSC practices even tho' I don't make 'Minor' with the loads I'm using. Still fun and surprisingly accurate. I used to shoot them in IDPA here before it folded as there is a BUG (Back Up Gun) category in IDPA.
I was recently on the hunt for some "L" frame speed loaders and was lucky enough to find some used ones in Kelowna. One shop clerk (Glock fan) laughed and said - "Who in hell shoots a revolver these days?". Answer - "Me and a lot other guys who appreciate all steel guns that work reliably and are not prone to AD/ND's."
He was not amused ....
However, enough with the political bull sh!t ..... ;>)
I've tried to organize a "prohib" event here but being good red necks (nothing less than a .338 will drop a moose), very few have anything that qualifies. When they had the opportunity to register one, they balked and missed the boat.
Only way I get to use mine competitively is to shoot one in our IPSC practices even tho' I don't make 'Minor' with the loads I'm using. Still fun and surprisingly accurate. I used to shoot them in IDPA here before it folded as there is a BUG (Back Up Gun) category in IDPA.
I was recently on the hunt for some "L" frame speed loaders and was lucky enough to find some used ones in Kelowna. One shop clerk (Glock fan) laughed and said - "Who in hell shoots a revolver these days?". Answer - "Me and a lot other guys who appreciate all steel guns that work reliably and are not prone to AD/ND's."
He was not amused ....
Speaking of fitting snubbies into boxes, my own snubby that I carried daily since September, 2008 in Mexico up until I returned here in July of 2016 was precisely this one:
Although it is still mine, it is sort of "on loan" to the ex-secretary of the San Miguel Club who only had a Colt Government Model .380. Here pictured with her Fusion Arms longlside in .380 Cal.
She found the recoil of a 160 grain SWC up around 900 fps to be unsettling using the wooden grips, and installed a set of Pachmayr's we had laying around in the loading room onto it. I photographed the gun with those grips on it last winter when I was there. I had my Bianchi Pistol Pocket with me (of course, why travel without it?).
I could not resist checking to see if it was still "concealable", and it is!
Untuck the shirt, and there would be no problem I suspect.
Still, there is no doubt it is bulkier. I don't think I will deprive her of it although I may "borrow it back" for an afternoon when we go to shoot the Snubby course. I am not sure, but I fear that the big rubber grips MAY disqualify this revolver from fitting into the "Snubby box". I will have to see. Either way, a smaller set of Pachmayr Compac Professional grips would certainly be fine, or Bantam grips also.
But if I have the chance, I'd love to shoot our little "test snubby course" using my own Model 49. It just might be hard to arrange, as time and schedules might not allow it.
Although it is still mine, it is sort of "on loan" to the ex-secretary of the San Miguel Club who only had a Colt Government Model .380. Here pictured with her Fusion Arms longlside in .380 Cal.
She found the recoil of a 160 grain SWC up around 900 fps to be unsettling using the wooden grips, and installed a set of Pachmayr's we had laying around in the loading room onto it. I photographed the gun with those grips on it last winter when I was there. I had my Bianchi Pistol Pocket with me (of course, why travel without it?).
I could not resist checking to see if it was still "concealable", and it is!
Untuck the shirt, and there would be no problem I suspect.
Still, there is no doubt it is bulkier. I don't think I will deprive her of it although I may "borrow it back" for an afternoon when we go to shoot the Snubby course. I am not sure, but I fear that the big rubber grips MAY disqualify this revolver from fitting into the "Snubby box". I will have to see. Either way, a smaller set of Pachmayr Compac Professional grips would certainly be fine, or Bantam grips also.
But if I have the chance, I'd love to shoot our little "test snubby course" using my own Model 49. It just might be hard to arrange, as time and schedules might not allow it.
In Mexico, the most powerful civilian-owned automatics are in .380 Cal, which is about the same power as 9mm +P in regular barrels and approaches .38 Super Factory power (about a 168 Power Factor) in a 5 inch fully-supported 1911 ramped barrel. You can actually break the 170 P.F. line using a 6-inch Fusion Arms barrel shooting a 142 grain Saeco #383 SWC at 1,200 fps although it is a "just barely" thing and hard to get more than 3 out of 5 shots in a row that do it.
In a revolver, on the other hand, any .357 capable revolver marked up and registered as a .38 Special will do it out of a .38 Special case (remember that original .357 loads were "worked up" in .38 Special casings). So a 3-inch 686 firing a 170 grain SWC at 1,200 fps real (and 1350 out of 6 inches, or 1440 out of 8 inches) is a real gong-ringer. When the question is "which would you choose?" between a 16 to 18 shot Glock or Beretta 92 firing a 150 P.F. bullet or a 7 shot revolver firing a 204 P.F. bullet (in 3 inches), or a 230 P.F. out of 6 inches, a lot of guys will take the revolver. The BIG danger is if armed, motorized thugs pull up alongside you on the way to the range and demand you "pull over" at gun point. You need to deal with it, and if you hit a little low you still want the penetration on a normal car-door (although, it MAY be up-armored. Nothing you can do about that.).
Lots of discussion about it either way. Right now, today (this morning) on the Sam-Qro WhattsApp feed the discussion is whether the "ultimate revolver" would be a 3 or 3.5 inch 8-shot N-frame (moonclipped) or a 3-inch 7-shot L-frame (moonclipped). It is an interesting discussion. Although Lew Horton offered a 3.5 inch Model 27 8-shooter, there are none around that would be easy to get but one could be assembled by installing a normal 3.5 inch Model 27 barrel onto a 627 and converting it to accept the ball-bearing cylinder lock. I actually have a 3.5 inch Model 27 barrel sitting in an empty plastic yogurt container in the loading room down in San Miguel, perhaps awaiting such a project.
As to the 686, S&W currently markets the 686 with a 7-shot, 3-inch barrel version although it is not moonclipped. However, T-K Custom could solve that problem. So either idea is viable. I do not know personally which of the two "idea guns" would be the ultimate revolver but it's interesting that several shooters like the L-frame because it CAN be fitted with a 6-shot cylinder as well which would function for Club matches that restrict the strings to 6 shots whereas the 627 cannot be fitted with a 6-shot cylinder that will work because the charge holes will not line up properly with the barrel axis on the 8-shot guns.
Anyway, in the Mexican shooting world the revolvers remain popular because they are the most powerful "legally" ownable and transportable sidearms available within the caliber framework that we have to work within. I prefer them, myself, because against assault-rifle armed thugs I do not think you will survive a long, drawn-out affair if you only have a sidearm that cannot be worn openly with an ample supply of ammo and if I'm only going to get a few shots to determine my immediate future I want them to be as powerful as I can control.
I understand my well-to-do friend in his choice of the Mini-Glock with 11 shots over a Snubby holding only 5 or 6 but I do not agree with him. I think 5 or 6 relatively powerful shots are more important than 10 or 11 weaker shots. He feels otherwise. It is his life (and mine) so each person has to choose. The choices truly have nothing to do with "sport" shooting and yet in the discussion as to whether a 7 or 8 shot Super Snubby might be the answer, several people are using the "Sport" argument to justify their choice. Interesting stuff.
When my 4" M66 was my sole IPSC eligible gun and money was tight, I did all my reloads in .38 Spl. brass as I had an unlimited supply from a friend who shot a lot of PPC with factory loads.
I had no trouble making "Major" with those loads when the PF was 175, not the current 170. I'd get three, maybe four reloads out of a case before they would split. Pressures must have been sky high as I made no reduction in powder charge using Unique with 158 gr SWC bullets.
We used the Cooper "Impact Plate" to calculate the PF. Remember that? The thing was calibrated with factory Winchester 230 gr FMJ and .38 Spl. 158 ammo. Caught a few guys who went light on the powder or bullet weight.
I had no trouble making "Major" with those loads when the PF was 175, not the current 170. I'd get three, maybe four reloads out of a case before they would split. Pressures must have been sky high as I made no reduction in powder charge using Unique with 158 gr SWC bullets.
We used the Cooper "Impact Plate" to calculate the PF. Remember that? The thing was calibrated with factory Winchester 230 gr FMJ and .38 Spl. 158 ammo. Caught a few guys who went light on the powder or bullet weight.
Normally, to get a 160 SWC up to 1250 fps out of 4 inches using the .38 Special case we used 7.5 grains of Unique. In a .357 case with the same bullet the maximum load was usually 8.0 grains. The reduced charge equals the same pressure and velocity in the reduced capacity case. We had to "reacquire" all the original .38 Heavy Duty loadings when we worked up this idea by reloading charge by charge and grain by grain and powder by powder until we amassed a sizeable database of .38 Heavy Duty loadings to duplicate their .357 counterparts. Then, as I have mentioned, we had to mark them in some way so that a dropped round would not be "confused" and accidently loading into a soft-steel 1950's Colt Agent or something like that. We mark the primers with a permanent red marker. Or, load the cases with red powder-coated bullets. Either method is a "watch out!!" sign.
We never worried about pressure. We had no way to test it, so our indicators were either blown or flattened primers, or bulged cases in the automatics. Also, we felt that if we did not have "one thumb ejection" from the revolvers -- hold the revolver straight up and down and push down the ejector with your thumb and if the cases don't easily and smoothly eject -- then the pressure was probably too high and the load should be "backed off". Remember always: in Mexico, you are not sueing anybody. Nobody cares if you got hurt and nobody is going to spoonfeed you. You need to take care of things yourself. Don't copy my loads and play with them if you can't handle getting blowed up if things don't work out. But we put a lot of time and effort into researching what we learned and if used in firearms of the correct strength all will work out.
Yes, I remember when the power factor was 175. I argued with Murray that it should be 180 to disqualify the Super and the duplex-powder loaded 9 mm. He said he would take it up with Cooper. When I asked him about it at the 1981 Nationals in Regina (you were there, but not RIGHT THERE when I asked him) he replied that Cooper said: "What about the Detonics? It doesn't make 180."
Well, I had no answer to that, so I just stifled. And 175 it was. But kudos to Murray, because he took the question up the chain right to the top. Doc and I have had our differences (like, for example, who should pay the restaurant bill) but where it truly counted he always came through.
If I could make memes, I would change this one to say: "Pressure? We don't worry about no stinkin' pressure." But I can't, so I won't.
I'm glad that someone besides me remembers the 175 PF. Most of the guys I shoot with have never even heard of Jeff Cooper or the Impact Pendulum.
Team Detonics came to our National shoots in BC with their little hand cannon and scored 175 PF "Major" with them. Must have been a fist full of dynamite to hang onto! This was in the era when 25% of your score was based on single draw & fire exercises out to 25m. I had the pleasure of beating one of their team in a man-on-man 6 rds/reload/6 rds with my 4" M66. Won "Top B Class" that year and still have the ZERO-Halliburton gun case they put up as a prize.
The load you mention is what I loaded - 7.5 grs Unique with a 158 gr bullet. I didn't want to mention it for fear of being buried in sh!t by the armchair ballisticians. I shot this load in Metallic Sil as well with the same gun. With Murray spotting for me I toppled 5 rams out of ten, I swear to God. I held over the back at the height of the rams horn and gave it my best squeeze. They rocked back a little and fell forward.
Currently I'm not interested in pounding myself or my guns the way I used to. Nor am I interested in practicing my revolver reloads until I have a callous on my thumb and other assorted cuts. I do however, spend a lot of time dry firing at the TV set which my indulgent wife puts up with. Commercials make for great practice as the images change so fast!
Spent some time today polishing and rounding the edges of the trigger on my 686-6 "Rappy" today. A lady by the name of "Anita" at S&W is looking into how and why they were made with that logo.
Team Detonics came to our National shoots in BC with their little hand cannon and scored 175 PF "Major" with them. Must have been a fist full of dynamite to hang onto! This was in the era when 25% of your score was based on single draw & fire exercises out to 25m. I had the pleasure of beating one of their team in a man-on-man 6 rds/reload/6 rds with my 4" M66. Won "Top B Class" that year and still have the ZERO-Halliburton gun case they put up as a prize.
The load you mention is what I loaded - 7.5 grs Unique with a 158 gr bullet. I didn't want to mention it for fear of being buried in sh!t by the armchair ballisticians. I shot this load in Metallic Sil as well with the same gun. With Murray spotting for me I toppled 5 rams out of ten, I swear to God. I held over the back at the height of the rams horn and gave it my best squeeze. They rocked back a little and fell forward.
Currently I'm not interested in pounding myself or my guns the way I used to. Nor am I interested in practicing my revolver reloads until I have a callous on my thumb and other assorted cuts. I do however, spend a lot of time dry firing at the TV set which my indulgent wife puts up with. Commercials make for great practice as the images change so fast!
Spent some time today polishing and rounding the edges of the trigger on my 686-6 "Rappy" today. A lady by the name of "Anita" at S&W is looking into how and why they were made with that logo.
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