DPMS vs Norinco CQ

I thought that I had answered your question, when I stated that I have shot one. I also own, and owned, a large number of DPMS manufactured parts that I use, or have used, on a number of rifles.

As far as my experience goes, the rifle went bang when I pulled the trigger, but as I have said before, it is a sample of one, and statistically that means nothing. I haven't been "crapping" on them, but I have been pointing out where they do not adhere to certain accepted standards (aka the TDP), cut corners in manufacturing, and use sub-standard materials.

Also, I am not the only one to point these out. As I have said before, trying to justify why you bought your DPMS, is not a good reason to advise others to do so when there are better choices.

Have you verified your list? Or are you just copying something you found on DPMS's site, or another forum? If I send something that I have manufactured to the Navy SEALs, can I claim that my product is used by them? See where this is going?

Finally, I don't have Hero status on any forum, I tend stay in my lane, and follow the read more, post less advice that you should probably think about.

Regards.

Mark
 
jmiddy,

I have a buddy that owns an Oly (I know, I know, friends don't let friends buy an Oly, but he bought it before I met him). I have shot it a bit, and it also went bang every time. Damn that sample of one! It went bang every time, so every Oly ever made is now deemed 100% reliable by my own experience.

However, a rifle is not just a rifle! If you only want a plinker, range toy, coffee table conversation piece, then an Oly, dare I say DPMS without incurring the wrath of the fanboys, etc. will probably outlast your grandchildren, while quite happily going bang every time you fire your annual box of twenty rounds.

Yes, there are only a few parts manufacturers, and actually only a couple of companies that actually forge the main parts. but that is where the similarity ends. What happens to the rough forgings, and how thoroughly they, and the other smaller parts are machined, anodized, etc., inspected and tested (ala QC), and then assembled and tested and inspected again, is where some of the difference lies. There are also differences in the materials used to manufacture barrels, bolts, receiver extensions, etc.

Do you think Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, would do all the QC that they do, and incur the extra expense, if they could get away with it? No! why do they do it? To ensure that if their product is used for its intended purpose, there is less likelyhood that it, or a part of it will fail.

Do we all need that level of reliability? If your unstaked gas key comes loose at the range, well you might lose the competition you were in. If it happens on a two way range, you might lose something a little more important.

No one is saying we all have to go out and buy Noveskes, but we should all be demanding the manufacturers do simple things like stake the receiver end plates and use the proper height front sights. It will not push up the prices that much, and will ultimately benefit the consumer. You wouldn't recommend anyone in your family buys the cheapest parachute they can find if you knew they actually might jump out of a plane with it. Well, how do you know that the person on the internet that you just recommended the (insert AR of choice here) to, may not need to use it for a serious social occasion some day?

Regards.

Mark
 
Last edited:
I have seen some mixed views on the DPMS rifle. We should just simplify this situation.
If I were to be standing at a table, where someone was selling 1 Norinco M4, and 1 DPMS M4, both for $700, which one would be a better choice?

I've heard things about the Norc, in terms of quality of workmanship. I've heard it can be a ##### to get the hand guards off, and that they sometimes need to be grinded off. Things like that would sway my decision, because I do want to be able to replace the hand guards with quad rails, or just a bottom rail at least for a fore-grip.

In a side by side comparison, both rifles the same price, right in front of me, would their be a clear and distinct, overall better choice?
 
^
True but the only two way range anyone here is going to with their own rifles!

The paper or steel target's dont shoot back.

Im not to disagree with you on quality control part of manufacturing is expensive it is.
But their are choices that the Op can make that are reliable rifles, like Stag.

You mentioned barrels their are only a few real barrel manufactures too and supply the barrels to many(most) AR assembly manufacturers.

To the Op I personally would rather buy US or Canada made other than Norinco only for the fact that it is providing employment in North America.
 
I believe the grinding you are referring to has to do with the front sight post, not the hand guards. People have had trouble removing the pins and sight post in one piece, and have resorted to the dremel in order to install a longer length rail.
 
I have never shot a Norinco, but I have handled them, and although (the ones that I have handled - small sample) looked and felt a little rough compared to most other ARs, I imagine that it would probably go bang when you pulled the trigger. I have heard of some ARs (not ones discussed here so far) from a very reliable source, that did not work straight out of the box.

I have seen comments on this forum but have not verified it myself, that the Norcs may have some issues fitting aftermarket parts.

Why is it you think you need quad rails? Or even a fore-grip. Buy the gun, use the chart to see where it might be deficient and rectify those issues (staking, springs, buffer, etc.) and then go shoot the hell out of it. In fact, you could even do that the other way around, except for the staking bit. Then decide if you really need to spend money on the stuff that Costa, the supersecretdeltarangerseals, or the cool guy at the range has hanging off of his.

You do know, that you can add a light, sling attachment, grip, etc. off of standard handguards or better (for me any way, may not work for you), a Magpul MOE handguard.

Regards.

Mark
 
Last edited:
I agree with you that a Stag will probably be a better choice than some of the others mentioned. I also agree with the buying North American thing.

Like someone said, we can't all drive Ferraris. Hell, my current batch of ARs are frankenguns with more different manufacturers parts in them than... well than most people can name. However, I have chosen wisely, as Yoda would say.

As regards barrels, there are indeed only a few manufacturers, but they make barrels with anything from paper-mache to unobtainium (4140, 4150, ORD 4150, ORD 4150 Resulfurized, Chrome-Moly-Vanadium, M249 Steel, Stainless in ?28 different flavours) depending on what is required. They can be button rifled, cold hammer forged, etc. as well as chrome-lined chamber and bore, bore only, as well as some proprietary finishes. And then there is the issue of chambering, .223 marked as 5.56, true 5.56, etc., and that pesky little issue of M4 feed ramps, and the manufaturers who offer "polished" M4 feed ramps, which really means dremeled in after the fact, and through the anodizing.

But hey it's the internet, and for all you know, I'm a spotty 15 year old sitting in my parents basement wearing multicam (without shoes, mom won't let me wear my OTBs in the house) while typing one handed and cradling my airsoft M4 with all the gucci bling attached that you could ever dream of.

Regards.

Mark
 
True true. The only thing I really care about is the ability to have a front grip on it. Mounting optics wont be a problem as the Norc has the detachable carry handle. Lights and lasers and s**t are for airsofters and call of duty fags. Basically I just want a cheap ar that does its job. The reason I want an ar is because I am a military man and I want to be just hot s**t at the C7. We don't get to shoot as often as you'd think. obviously the Norc and the C7 would be quite different, in terms of quality, but an ar is an ar and they function the same. All the handling drills would be the same.

Also, I realize the Norc is carbine length and the C7 is not, but again, the overall handling and operation of all ar's is the same.
 
First of all, my thanks to you for your service.

If you let us know your budget (I know the pay is sh!t, and we all have to eat), then perhaps you can put together something that is better than an off the shelf item. Note, I don't do this for a living, so I'm not trying to sell you anything, even though I do have some stuff for sale.

It doesn't have to be complicated (as in no tools required, unless you want to build it from scratch, but that may not work out cheaper). Also, if you wait a pay day or two, you might have a slightly better budget.

For example, you could put together a very nice lower for around 400 to 500, and an upper for about the same. Building it yourself will give you a good insight into how it works, and what can go wrong, and most importantly, how to fix it when it does.

You could also get closer to a clone of what you are issued.

I have built (assembled) all my ARs, but then I also built my own bicycles, and PCs from parts. It is pretty easy.

If you are not so inclined, buy a Stag/RRA/Sabre if you can, and go shoot it.

Regards.

Mark
 
For right now, at least, I'd say the very most I'd want to spend would be around $1200 ish, and I realize that isn't a lot in the world of ar's. At the moment, the Norinco doesn't seem like such a bad idea anymore. Its not like I'm competition shooting with it, or trusting my life on it, so I'd probably be happy with just the Norc. The price of it is one of the most appealing things to me. If I were to wait, however, put some money aside, I would absolutely go for a Stag or Sabre.
Building an ar from scratch does sound appealing, but I think thats something I would do later on, possibly after owning a few different ar's, after I am more knowledgeable on the subject.

Thank you for the input though, this is some good stuff. I'm still a couple months away from buying an ar, but this is certainly helping me make my decisions.
 
MWL said:
Dangertree, I'm not sure if you are refering me or others to that site. If it's me, then that is why I visit numerous forums.

If there is some groupthink going on, then I would rather follow the groupthink on forums such as the ones I mentioned (populated and moderated by Industry Professionals and BTDT people), than the bubblegum (or should that be babbagun) forums (a couple spring to mind, and strangely enough they all seem to sprout the same BS despite being populated and moderated by different people).

With regard to enefgee's comments, the chart only listed (more on that later) those manufacturers that produced M4gerys (real M4s have a happy switch), and listed the "features" of factory assembled guns. That is where people like you, who obviously have a real hard@n for the chart, get it soooo wrong.

As someone has already stated, ARs here in Canada are mainly range toys, and generally do not see hard use. Not too many people up here putting a couple of thousand rounds a week, or even a couple of thousand a day through their DPMS/Oly/whatever.

On that note, if you think there is no difference in receiver extensions (metal composition and manufacturing technique doesn't produce a product less likely to fail under hard use?), then you should probably follow the advice of read more, post less. Your posts are beginning to make you seem a little bit of a Stag/Armseast fanboy with a bit of Questarism thrown in.

If the chart is soooo bad, why are Armseast going to so much trouble to make sure their guns follow it, and the TDP, more closely than the manufacturer? That aside, if the manufacturer doesn't HP/MPI test every one of their barrels and bolts, or uses 4140 rather than ORD 4150 steel in the barrels (note, I'm not necessarily referring to Stag here), how are the retailers here going to rectify it? Staking is one thing, but I'd like to see the dealers rectify those issues.

On the whole "out of date" issue, the only thing that is out of date, is your knowledge of the chart. If you follow my earlier link, you will find that it no longer lists any manufacturers (and may or may not in the future, Rob is still undecided on that). When, if ever, it again contains actual manufacturer information, this will come from the manufacturers, be verified by end users, and be kept as up to date as possible.

Regards.

Mark
Click to expand...

Dude,

Funniest newbie post this year! :D:D:D:D:D

FYI, Dangertree is the owner of Arms East, the Canadian distributor of STAG ARMS for the entire country. I guess you could call him a "fanboy" of Arms East in that regard! :D:D:D:D:D
 
Actually, only the first two paragraphs were for Dangertree. The rest of my post was in response to enefgee's comments. That was why I used their names.

But in your rush to show how clever you are, you seem to have missed that.

However, you must be right, look at how many posts you have, and the snappy response (that does not really add anything to this thread).

Regards.

Mark
 
JBarks,

With that budget, you could definitely get a rifle closer in spec and features to what you are issued.

Take a look at Stag (Armseast) or Sabre (Wolverine Supplies - they even offer a LE/Mil discount).

Regards.

Mark
 
MWL said:
I thought that I had answered your question, when I stated that I have shot one. I also own, and owned, a large number of DPMS manufactured parts that I use, or have used, on a number of rifles.

As far as my experience goes, the rifle went bang when I pulled the trigger, but as I have said before, it is a sample of one, and statistically that means nothing. I haven't been "crapping" on them, but I have been pointing out where they do not adhere to certain accepted standards (aka the TDP), cut corners in manufacturing, and use sub-standard materials.

Also, I am not the only one to point these out. As I have said before, trying to justify why you bought your DPMS, is not a good reason to advise others to do so when there are better choices.

Have you verified your list? Or are you just copying something you found on DPMS's site, or another forum? If I send something that I have manufactured to the Navy SEALs, can I claim that my product is used by them? See where this is going?

Finally, I don't have Hero status on any forum, I tend stay in my lane, and follow the read more, post less advice that you should probably think about.

Regards.

Mark
Click to expand...

Dear Mark,

Should a company put a name on a list such as this without it being accurate/true they would be sued or at the very least asked to remove it and sued if they did not. You cannot send something to the Navy Seals and then list them as a client. So no, I do not see where you are going with this. Companies put a ton of effort into having marquee clients and cannot claim them to be if they are not, at least not without legal repercussions. Why not ask all the folks I am sure you know that work for the organizations listed to refute DPMS claims.

I don't believe I posted any advice in regards to DPMS rifles with the exception of saying they are not the garbage you claim them to be. You must be confused with another one of your forums where they are all experts. There will ALWAYS be 'better' or at the very least 'more expensive' options not only for full firearms but for components, what is your point? So sorry that the knowledge and experience of folks on CGN doesn't compare to your other haunts.

By the way, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

BTW- Who even said I owned a DPMS rifle? I don't believe I said that. But of course if I did why would it make sense for somebody that actually owns and shoots one to give advice on it when they can just consult the 'chart' or you. ;)
 
The Chart is as useless as M4 feed ramps on a semi only rifle which are totally useless on a rifle limited to an ammo stack of 5 rnds.

Buy a quality factory rifle and chances are nothing will need fixing for a long time. I love my Stag, it has been uber reliable for 10 000+ rounds now and has helped me win my share of siverware over the last few years.


Stags start at $1360 from Arms East
RRA start at $1350 from Questar
And the Remington R15 (built by bushmaster) is $1150 from wholesale sports.

Keep these prices in mind when shopping around for a new or used rifle or thinking about buying the parts (and tools) to build a rifle.
 
MWL said:
As regards barrels, there are indeed only a few manufacturers, but they make barrels with anything from paper-mache to unobtainium (4140, 4150, ORD 4150, ORD 4150 Resulfurized, Chrome-Moly-Vanadium, M249 Steel, Stainless in ?28 different flavours) depending on what is required.
Click to expand...

A small point, but M249 steel is not a real steel alloy, it is a Noveske Marketing line. M249 is a family of light machineguns, not a steel alloy. I'm not sure which alloy M249's are presently made with but in the past they have been made from everything from chrome-lined 4140 to stellite-lined alloys.

As a word of caution, be careful of this sort of advertising - it often doesn't mean very much and is designed, if anything, to sell more guns at a higher price point.

As for DPMS, it's VERY difficult in my opinion to judge DPMS rifles with blanket statements for the following reasons:

1) DPMS, in general, is an assembler that buys parts from a groups of regular suppliers. As an example, when you buy a DPMS LPK one month and compare it to a DPMS LPK bought 6 months later, the parts will often be made by different manufacturers. Often the parts are military contract over-runs of very high quality, and other times they are commercial grade parts of lesser reputation. It's a crap shoot if you can't see the kit in-hand. The only real constant is DPMS consistently supplies M16 hammers with the sear trip ground off prior to parkerizing - they are one of the only manufacturers selling these un-notched hammers.

2) Most of the "brand name" AR makers do not make all their own parts. This is especially true of LPK parts where the pins, springs, castings, etc. are only made by a handful of companies who supply everybody. The same is true of DPMS, though they tend to shop around for the cheapest prices more often so have more LPK variability. For the record, I have often used DPMS LPK's for builds and once in a while I will swap out their triggers for better ones because sometimes you get one that is on the soft side. Generally though, I've received good parts from them 95% of the time.

3) the DPMS models being sold to federal agencies are usually NOT the AR's you buy on their website. Federal (and probably state) agencines will publish a statement of requirements and DPMS (or the successful bidder) will build the AR's to meet that spec for a given price. The website AR's are assembled to whatever spec DPMS chooses to make commercial sale AR's to. The same is true of any serious AR maker - they will make to whatever spec they want to, to meet a given marketing strategy or achieve a target price point.

4) Like any AR maker, there will be good guns and bad, similar to the difference between a car made through the week and one made right before the whistle on a Friday. I am not aware of any comprehensive study to compare QA/QC and reliability of DPMS AR15's vs any other brand with statistically significant sample sizes, but I do know that DPMS with their attractive price point sells more AR's to American consumers than, say, LMT does since there are fewer people who can afford the LMT. It is therefore possible you hear more bad things about DPMS than LMT be cause there are more out there and people with problems are more likely to post on the internet looking for help than people with no problems. This is not to say DPMS is the equal of LMT quality, but they could very well be as reliable barring objective evidence to the contrary. I doubt either LMT or DPMS is going to release accurate stats on the percentage of warranty claims they receive each year per number of rifles sold, so barring that, we are all just speculating.

Cheers.
 
Last edited:
Thank you Claven2.

I will point out that you did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night nor are you the owner of m4Whatever.com so you are probably not a reliable source. :p

bwhahaha
 
I am well aware of what a M249 is. I listed it as one of the materials that barrels have been manufactured from, as believe that is how it was described in an earlier version of the chart and by Noveske. Todd from Noveske describes it as "specifically chosen over ORD4150 and CMV for use in belt fed machineguns...It is a different alloy than ORD4150 or CMV, and conforms to 3.4.1 of MIL-B-11595E for quality and cleanliness of the steel." I also know that no one has really made an AR barrel from paper-mache, but I'm not sure about the unobtanium.

I keep being misquoted as having said that DPMS products are cr@p, or garbage. I have merely pointed out that they cut corners, use cheaper components and process, and do not have as good QC as they could have. Claven2 pretty much confirmed this with his post, when he describes the "operating policies" of the company. Other assemblers, if you will, with a higher level of attention to detail, and a higher rejection rate, will obviously put out a more consistent product, that if properly tested, is less lightly to experience a failure due to components or assembly.

Also, as he mentioned the US, there is not that big of a difference with regard to price there, when comparing most manufacturers, as some people think there is. In many examples, it is only the cost of a case or two of ammo (US pricing) between a number of offerings, if you shop around.

As regards your list, you didn't answer my question. Has the list been verified by anyone? Do you know that all of those agencies actually requested DPMS rifles, and are using them officially? Does the list include agencies that allow individual members to privately purchase DPMS rifles using agency/departmental letterhead/approval? Does the list only pertain to rifles, or does it include any agency that has purchased an AR tool, block, or part of any description? Is it a list of current users only, or a historical list?

Regards.

Mark
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom