Dumbed down black powder??

Actually on the NRCan site, I personally prefer these 2 videos. Maybe just because that I was the one that did the work for CERL. Just another day on the job. The 3rd one called "Lead Glass" is also my work. If you guys find any of my other work on the net, please notify me.

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/mms-smm/expl-expl/cerl-lcre/vid-vid-eng.htm

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/mms-smm/expl-expl/cerl-lcre/video/windowtesting2.mpg

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/mms-smm/expl-expl/cerl-lcre/video/lrgscaleexpl.avi


In reviewing the video in #10, I would also say that they are showing an "explosion".

Definition of explosion "A violent expansion as a result of great pressure"

Definition of Explosive " A substance which when subjected to heat,
friction, percussion or other suitable
stimulus undergoes a rapid chemical
transformation liberating heat and forming
other substances mainly gaseous.

The wall don't project outwards, by themselves, obviously there is a pressure buildup of some sort.
 
Garand said:
Please quote your sources. And Suputin remember I also specified degree of confinement. By reading your posting, you give me the impression that you don't have a lot of experience working in the explosives world.
Click to expand...

www.tc.gc.ca. transportation of dangerous goods. road, rail, marine. a simple search of the net will tell you what you want. tdg rules are there to help in the event of a collision or spill. so fire, rescue and cleanup know what they are dealing with when they come to pull your stupid a$$ out of the vehicle. they do very little in explaining how a substance reacts to heat when confined. smokeless is defined by tdg as a flammable solid, inorganic. n.o.s (small arms propellant) class 4.1 un3178 packing group II. my inexperience is from 25 years as a driver, dock foreman and now head dispatch at a major transport company. tdg rules have recently been changed for bulk load so that the un # is on the placard. the type of powder we use is packed in small enough containers to be listed as a user commodity. all classes of explosives require placards regardless of quantity they are class 1 explosives. the only exception here is class 1.4S which anything over1100# is when you need placards. in the class 4.3 i.e zinc or calcium nitrate you need placards regardless of weight because if you throw water on that fire, you may as well throw gasoline. this could go on and on, all you need is a truckers handbook on the transportation of dangerous goods or phone D.O.T. yourself. have your un # handy as even these so called pro's may be ignorant to the facts. i was on scene of a minor accident with one of our trucks and the police officer was going to fine the driver $400 for improper placarding because he had one barrel of class 8 (corrosive) liquid on board and had no placards on the vehicle. the barrel only weighed 500# and placards were not needed. the liquid by the way... bleach.
 
When I was being taught ammo safety, as it related to storage areas and facilities where there was still a fair amount of black powder put away as bursting charges, the explanation we were given in simple terms was that one could make a very large pile of smokeless powder, light it, and it would burn violently. A deflagration.
The Black powder under the same conditions will explode. Not quickly, in the scheme of things explosives-wise, but explode.

Fifty pounds of bursting powder going up makes a very mushroomy cloud, too! :)

The graphite ...

From http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/history.html
"The deeply black colour of todays black powder is caused by the graphite coating, used to improve its flow properties and damp resistance."


http://www.freepyroinfo.com/Pyrotechnic/Black_Powder/Blackpowdergrades.txt
"The graphite does act as a burn rate modifier, slowing the burn rate
slightly. But primarily, the graphite serves as a surface lubricant to
make the powder flow more easily when loading guns. It also serves the
cosmetic purpose of making the powder shiny and pretty."

From my readings over the years, the graphite goes in after the grains are formed and they are in the process of being polished in tumbler.


Cheers
Trev
 
Definition of explosion "A violent expansion as a result of great pressure"
Click to expand...

[youtube]EN3EFAZ3e1s&feature=related[/youtube]

This what you had in mind? Just cause it goes "bang" doesn't mean it is an explosion.

Definition of Explosive " A substance which when subjected to heat,
friction, percussion or other suitable stimulus undergoes a rapid chemical
transformation liberating heat and forming other substances mainly gaseous.
Click to expand...

So now you gonna make the argument that matches are explosives?

[youtube]ryDz-NtSoEE&NR=1[/youtube]

Even a substance as inoquous as flour can explode under the right conditions. Flour can cause very powerful explosions but it is not an explosive in anyone's mind. Explosives cause explosions but not all explosions are caused by explosives.

[youtube]_8LomAyweqw&feature=related[/youtube]

The difference between an explosive and a flammable solid is really the speed at which the solid is consumed and converted to gas. The faster that happens, the more energetic the substance. There are reasonably clear definitions of high and low explosive based on this.

Once a substance is contained all kinds of things can happen. Boil water in a sealed tin and eventually you will get an "explosion". But that doesn't make water an explosive. Seal smokeless powder into a steel tube and set a fuze to it and you will also get an explosion but that doesn't make smokeless powder a true explosive. No matter how much you contain smokeless powder or how quickly you ignite it, you won't get a high velocity detonation wave transmitted through the material.

The government can class gun powder any way it likes, that doesn't change the fact that gunpowder does not explode via a detonation wave. It is and always will be a flammable solid that undergoes deflagration somewhat akin to wood burning but obviously a lot faster. It will always require containment in order to create a bang. And it is the containment and sudden release that causes the bang, not the sudden conversion from solid to gas that typifies a proper explosive.
 
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Both black powder and Smokeless powder are considered to be Low Explosive. They both Deflagrate rather than Detonate. They will explode under the right conditions but neither will explode when ignited on their own.

Many items (steam etc) can cause explosions. These are classed as mechanical and not chemical explosions so the water or steam is not an explosive itself.

Bottom line is both Black and Smokeless powders are Low Explosive but they can also be considered a propellant.

I hope that settles the argument and if anyone wants to know I am not quoting this off the internet. PM and I will send you my CV :)

EDIT: I have to add Black Powder will "Self Contain" if there is enough of it and can possibly explode without further containment but that does not change the fact it still needs the confinement. OH and Garand your Guy Fawkes has his bomb in the left hand I am I Guy Fawkes bomb in right hand kind of guy :)
 
snoopycda, part of my job for 26 of the last 30 years was as a Dangerous Goods Shipper for land ,sea and air also. As required I re-certified every 2 years. Because of my job description I only shipped explosives.

You mentioned "Inspectors", I have also heard of a number of police officers claiming to be "inspectors" (without the appropriate appointment), as a matter of fact about 5 years ago, there was an unwarranted hostile takedown of a gentleman, wife and child in Swift Current. One of the officers was stating that he was a "qualified inspector". He obviously wasn't knowledgeable of the Special Cases Para 1.15 in the TDG regs that covers Exemption for Personal Use or Para 1.16 that covers the 500 kg exemption. It is my understanding that the case was thrown out of court and then all the officers involved were reamed a new a**hole by the judge that presided over the case.

I checked the 2008 Emergancy guidebook and it does specify what you mentioned. If you cross reference it against the TDG Schedule one you will see that UN 3178 is listed as Titanium Disulfide and Schedule one lists Smokeless Powder as UN 0161, 1.3C and Black Powder as UN 0027 or UN 0028 and 1.1D.



trevj: To add to your info on graphite:

From the British Army handbook for Ammunition Technicians, dated 2004

Graphite: Small proportions of graphite are added to the surface of granular propellants, particularly fpr SAA (Small arms ammunition). This improves the flow properties of the propellant and at the same time by providing a conducting surface reduces the risk of accumulated electrostatic charges.

Candelilla Wax: is added in small amounts to solventless propellants in order to facilitate extrusion.
 
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