Duplicate WWI 30-06 loads??

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I have built up a couple M1917 rifles, more or less as used in WWI, or as re-build by USA military during WWII. So, to feed them. I am reading online that original 30-06 USA military loads, circa WWI, used 150 grain flat base bullets at about 2,700 fps. Then the M1 Ball was created in 1926 - 174 grain with 9 degree boat tail, at 2,640 fps. Finally, in 1938 the M2 Ball was created - a 151 or 152 grain flat based bullet, loaded with IMR 4895, for 2,805 fps. I understand that the M2 Ball was pretty much the standard ammo for USA military in 30-06 rifles, until it was replaced with the 7.62 NATO.

So, no way I can be the first to try this - what would be a bullet and powder to try to use, to replicate the original or the M2 Ball loading, for these M1917 rifles?? I am not interested in "maxing it out" or "hot rodding" - I would like to reproduce one or other of those historic loadings. Is for punching holes in targets only - I have no intention to try to go hunting with these rifles.

I would appreciate any thoughts about appropriate modern bullets and powder to make work??
 
Your P17s can handle just about anything you want to shoot out of them, from 110grain to 220grain bullets at velocities that were established around 46,000psi.

My P17 really likes the 150grain Flat Base Spitzer Sierra bullets over 60.0 grains of H4831 for a velocity of 2800 fps.

Sierra makes a 155 grain Palma Match bullet which is basicly a FMJ with a tiny hollow point. The same load of H4831 works very well with it.

The same bullets with 48.0 grains of IMR4895 produces the same velocities but isn't quite as consistent or as accurate.

Of course, I use CCI 250 magnum primers for everything.
 
Thanks, bearhunter - so much I was able to find "on-line" was as if modern guys want to make 30-06 into a 30 Magnum of some kind - opposite of what I want to try - wanted something similar to what was used by "dough boys" in France, etc. I actually have the Palma bullets for a couple "Palma" type 7.62 NATO rifles - will have to find some Sierra flat base 150's.
 
find a copy of Cartridges of the World. There should be historic load data in it.

4831 may have been the first powder used... for sure, that is what Hodgdon got 'tons' of to start his powder business.

I think 4895 is a newer formulation but was also used?

Jerry
 
All you need to know (unless you want to shoot cast or powder coat)
they are talking about m1 Garands but will work in bolt actions too
note if using these loads in a garand do not use the fed primer .... use win, cci or other hard primer

From 30-06 Springfield Part 2 - Service Rifle Loads

http://www.provenreloads-handloads..../30-06-springfield-part-2-service-rifle-loads


M2 Ball

This ammunition utilizes a 147 to 152 grain Full Metal Jacket Boat-tailed (FMJBT) bullet at a muzzle velocity of ~2740 fps. Cartridge Overall Length (COL) = 3.185 to 3.240". You can match this spec as follows:

150 gr. FMJBT (Sierra or Hornady), 47.5 gr. of IMR4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

150 gr. FMJBT (Sierra or Hornady), 47.5 gr. of H-4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

150 gr. FMJBT (Sierra or Hornady), 50.0 gr. of IMR4064, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

150 gr. FMJBT (Sierra or Hornady), 50.0 gr. of W748, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

These M2 equivalent loads work great for the slow-fire offhand and rapid-fire sitting/kneeling portions of the NRA National Match Course. If you're looking for a little edge in accuracy, try Sierra's 150 gr. MatchKing, 155 gr. MatchKing or their 155 gr. PALMA MatchKing bullets. Another bullet that deserves a serious look is Nosler's 155 gr. Custom Competition.

Old School: If recoil is or becomes an issue in offhand and/or rapid fire, try substituting the Sierra 125 gr. Spitzer Flat-based Pro-Hunter bullet in the loads above. They are fun to shoot, light on the shoulder, less expensive and operate beautifully in the M1. You may be surprised at how accurate they are! If match bullets are an absolute must for you, try Sierra's 125 gr. Hollow Point (HP) or 135 gr. Hollow Point Boat-tail (HPBT) MatchKings.

M72 Match

This ammunition utilizes a 172 to 173 grain FMJBT bullet at a muzzle velocity of ~2640 fps. With 168 and 175 gr. match bullets, COL = 3.240 to 3.330".Here you can "tweak" the load a little (Yeah, I'm a handloader at heart...lol). You can match this spec as follows:

168 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 46.0 to 47.0 gr. of IMR4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

168 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 46.0 to 47.0 gr. of H-4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

168 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 48.0 to 49.0 gr. of IMR4064, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

168 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 48.0 to 49.0 gr. of W748, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

175 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 46.0 to 46.5 gr. of IMR4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

175 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 46.0 to 46.5 gr. of H-4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

175 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 47.0 to 47.5 gr. of IMR4064, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

175 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 47.0 to 47.5 gr. of W748, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

600 Yard Line

The heaviest bullet weight that can be utilized in the M1 Garand is Sierra's 180 gr. HPBT MatchKing. This is "the" bullet to use if you're shooting the 600 yard NRA target on a windy day! COL = 3.240 to 3.330". Try the following data:

180 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 45.0 gr. of IMR4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

180 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 45.0 gr. of H-4895, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

180 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 47.0 gr. of IMR4064, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

180 gr. Sierra HPBT MatchKing, 47.0 gr. of W748, Military Brass, Fed 210/210M or WLR Primer

What about other more modern bullets and powders? There are several "newer" bullets (of appropriate weight) and powders (of appropriate burn rate) out there and they'll work just fine. If you wish to try them, please feel free to do so but, remember...follow the bullet and/or powder manufacturer's recommendations! If you're not sure, call them. They will tell you what will or will not work in the M1 Garand.

Keep in mind that the parameters for M1 service rifle loads are very tight. Bottom line, please remember the title of this blog..."provenreloads-handloads." I wouldn't pass along this information if it didn't work, time and time again.

One or more of the loads referenced above will provide consistent, reliable and supremely accurate ammunition for your M1 Garand. Have fun and good shooting!



Hunting Loads for Semi-auto and Pump-action Rifles

Ah, hah...some of you thought that I had forgotten! In the previous blog article, ".30-06 Springfield Part 1 - Hunting Loads," I mentioned that I would discuss '06 hunting loads for our brethren that prefer semi-auto or pump-action "civilian-built" rifles. Bullet preference would be the standard "cup-and-core" type. Nosler Partitions also work very well in these loads. Bonded bullets are the rage these days but I'd leave them out of these loads. Bullet construction is a bit on the stout side and you may not get the results you want.

Here goes:

· Substitute 150 grain Spitzer Flat-based or Boat-tail bullets (i.e., Speer, Sierra or Hornady) in the M2 Ball load info referenced above.

· Substitute 165 grain Spitzer Flat-based or Boat-tail bullets (i.e., Speer, Sierra or Hornady) in the 168/175 grain M72 Match load info referenced above.

· Substitute 180 grain Spitzer Flat-based or Boat-tail bullets (i.e., Speer, Sierra or Hornady) in the 180 grain "600 yard" Match load info referenced above.

Note: COL should be set per bullet manufacturer's loading manual recommendation, not to exceed 3.340". Make sure that your cartridge length does not exceed your magazine length.

I've utilized the bullet substitution loads referenced above in the Remington 750 and its predecessors (i.e., the Remington 4, 74, 740, 742 and 7400) as well as the Browning BAR series and Benelli's R1. They work like a champ!

Needless to say, they also do beautifully well in pump-action rifles like the Remington 6, 76, 760 and 7600.

These loads will bring meat home to the freezer and a big smile to your face!

Go for it, my friend!
 
if Shooting at 1-200 yards your low cost Hornady 150g sp Hunting bullet will work very well (in most cases shoot better than the shooter/ rifle)
using the M2 ball load

Note on Brass weight
30-06 Military Brass weight is around 200g (cleaned no primer/ trimmed to length)

Some brass will weigh less and for best accuracy should be kept separate and loaded different than the 200g brass
 
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just having some fun said:
if Shooting at 1-200 yards your low cost Hornady 150g sp Hunting bullet will work very well (in most cases shoot better than the shooter/ rifle)
using the M2 ball load

Note on Brass weight
30-06 Military Brass weight is around 200g (cleaned no primer/ trimmed to length)

Some brass will weigh less and for best accuracy should be kept separate and loaded different than the 200g brass
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i

Thank you for the various informations - will be handy to know that military brass case weight. I must be unusual - maybe because in Manitoba / Saskatchewan - military 30-06 brass is not something that I find here. I will have to watch specifically for that, if I want to reproduce something like the original 30-06 WWI loadings. Pretty much "drowning" in commercial stuff, like Federal, R-P and W-W, but not much on hand - if any - for military 30-06. I am on wrong side of the 49th, I guess!!!
 
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Note

Most comercial brass will be close to the 200g weight just made with no military markings and no crimped in primer pockets


if using the Hornady A max Bullet check the first one in your chamber ..... just push it in with your thumb ???? does it extract ??? it should just fall out or be able to pick it out with a finger nail

the ogive on the Amax will stick if loaded too long .... ASK ME HOW I KNOW .... keep a tooth brush in your range bag

also check for mag length fit
 
To duplicate the WW1 load, use a flat base 150 gr bullet. This would also probably be the most accurate. I use the Hornady soft point.

Use 3031. Load 5 of each 40 gr to 48gr, in 1 gr increments. See what shoots best. My rifle likes 44.
 
I have not duplicated this but close.
Using 150 grain Nosler solid base, a slight boat tail on this one. At 300 yards from my M1 and forgotten amount of 3031 powder, man it was a tight little group using NRA data.

And regarding even lighter bullets in Garand hand loads, the Nosler 125 grain ballistic tip and the Nosler 125 grain Accubond appear virtually identical side by side.
But in my meager experience the Accubond will easily outshoot the Ballistic Tip at 100 yards. Varget powder.

125 grain bullets in Garand hand loads are a pussy cat in the recoil department.
 
4895 is my go to starting point for military cartridges, but it's rather fast. 4831 seems slow for use with 150gr. Another powder between is 3031, which of course stands for 303 #1, the powder they replaced cordite with bringing 303 to smokeless. So possible to have been a WW1 powder. Are you trying to develop something that corresponds with the iron sites of a intact 1917? That action is enormously strong, I've had 338wm, and 7rm rifles, still have a 264wm and 416 Rigby.

One last thought, the M2 ball 1938 would be developed to be used in the then brand new M1 Garand. Would think that 4895 was a fast enough powder for the peak pressure to be past, thus not beating up the Garand action.
 
nowarningshot said:
4895 is my go to starting point for military cartridges, but it's rather fast. 4831 seems slow for use with 150gr. Another powder between is 3031, which of course stands for 303 #1, the powder they replaced cordite with bringing 303 to smokeless. So possible to have been a WW1 powder. Are you trying to develop something that corresponds with the iron sites of a intact 1917? That action is enormously strong, I've had 338wm, and 7rm rifles, still have a 264wm and 416 Rigby.

One last thought, the M2 ball 1938 would be developed to be used in the then brand new M1 Garand. Would think that 4895 was a fast enough powder for the peak pressure to be past, thus not beating up the Garand action.
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It is my intent to reproduce some loading that will more or less follow the original sights - and I am no special word class target shooter!!! Pretty basic - to want the battle sight to plunk wherever it was supposed to - flip up the ladder and 200 to whatever, and be close enough to ring a gong. What I have is M1917 bolt actions - two for sure - others "under construction" - so, not a Garand, at all. My impression as above - there was a WWI 30-06 loading for everything - 2700 fps-ish with 150 grain flat base bullet - then the 1920 something M1 Ball. Then the 1938 M2 Ball which likely was used in any 30-06 that USA Army put to the field in WWII - was not just for Garand, I don't think??
 
The best history source for this is Hatcher, he has chapters dedicated to .30-06 ammunition in both Book of the Garand, and Hatcher's Notebook.

The first ammunition in the series was the 1903 pattern, for the 1903 Springfield rifle. It was a 220gr, round nosed bullet at 2300fps. It didn't last long.

Then came the 1906 ammunition, the first to truly be ".30-06". It was a 150gr, flat-based, cupro-nickel jacketed, spitzer bullet at 2700 fps. Ballistic tables said the bullet could carry 4700 yards under ideal circumstances, but Hatcher was sceptical and ordered testing done. The results were a maximum range of 3400 yards, and it was found that the published ballistic tables were out by almost 40% at extreme ranges.

When the USA sent their first troops to World War I, they used Vickers and Hotchkiss machine guns, which had excellent long range performance. After a few months, they transitioned to Browning M1917s with 1906 ammunition. The difference in extreme range was very significant to the gunners, and they raised a fuss. Work began on a cartridge that would get the americans up to snuff as far as long range gunnery was concerned. In 1925 that round came out as the M1, with a ~174gr, gilding metal jacketed bullet with 9° boattail at 2640fps. Maximum range was an astonishing 5500 yards.

Production began on the new ammo at once, but strangely usage did not. There were over 2 billion rounds of 1906 ammo in war stores, and it was figured that once everyone got a taste of the new M1 ammo performance they wouldn't want to go back. So it was ordered that no M1 ammo be distributed for normal usage until all the 1906 was gone. Thus the M1 was in production a full ten years before anyone began to use it in quantity. Once they did, they immediately found a problem.

The long range M1 ammo was actually capable of overshooting the safety templates of many US miltary ranges, in particular National Guard ranges. That heavy 174gr bullet also made for stout recoil in the Springfield bolt rifles. The WWI machine gunners who had cared so much about long range firing were all retired, so it turns out the M1 round had no supporters, at all.

So an about-face was made. A new round was developed to mimic the 1906 loading, using a flat-based 150gr spitzer bullet, but now with a gilding metal jacket instead of cupro-nickel, and velocity was upped to 2800fps. The gilding metal was stained a silvery colour to make it visually different from the M1 ammo. The new round was called the M2, and was first ordered for the National Guard for safety reasons, but soon started to make its way into other troops' hands and they all preferred it. In 1940 it was listed as standard for all services.

So if you're shooting a Springfield or P17 rifle, you are correct that the correct ammo would be something like the 1906 or M2 rounds. They were used with the M1 round but only for a couple of years.

Now here's the bit you may find surprising, the Garand can of course be used with M2, but that ammo was not the intended war fodder for it. The Garand was designed for and tested with M1, as everyone thought that was going to be standard once the war stores were used up. And by the time the rifles were in volume production the decision had been made that combat troops would actually be issued .30 APM2, the black-tipped stuff with armour piercing core. This is a 168gr bullet at 2775 fps, and what virtually every frontline US infantryman was given to load his Garand rifle during WWII. M2 ball was used in the Garand for training and stateside use only.
 
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Very cool, BattleRife!! So all the feats and walk-about in early 1900's - Rooseveldt, White, etc. that created the story of the "Great 30-06" - all done with 150 grain bullets at 2,700 fps. 1903 Springfield rifles, I am sure they used. I recall the Imperial or Dominion boxes of 30-06 ammo that my Dad bought in 1960's / 1970's - had a chart on back - I am quite sure was 2,910 fps for the 150 grain bullets for 30-06 - so that era factory spec was 200 fps faster than original!!
 
Potashminer said:
Very cool, BattleRife!! So all the feats and walk-about in early 1900's - Rooseveldt, White, etc. that created the story of the "Great 30-06" - all done with 150 grain bullets at 2,700 fps. 1903 Springfield rifles, I am sure they used. I recall the Imperial or Dominion boxes of 30-06 ammo that my Dad bought in 1960's / 1970's - had a chart on back - I am quite sure was 2,910 fps for the 150 grain bullets for 30-06 - so that era factory spec was 200 fps faster than original!!
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Those numbers were also very optimistic and taken from 30 inch test barrels.

I've chronied that same ammo and it's right arount 2700fs from a 23 inch barrel.
 
bearhunter said:
Those numbers were also very optimistic and taken from 30 inch test barrels.

I've chronied that same ammo and it's right arount 2700fs from a 23 inch barrel.
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Ha! Once again, a chronograph screen blows great big holes in widely held opinion!!! But, if my Dad was typical North Sask bush guy, he grew up shooting deer with 38-40 and 44-40 lever rifles. My Grandpa's 38-55 was a "big boomer" for moose. A 30-30 was a pretty spiffy "hot rod". Hunting deer in that place and time was always walking out of the house and into the bush. At least once, Dad took a nice whitetail buck from the farm house door step - the deer was in the garden.

Then the 303 British showed up - most, I think, were attracted to the 10 round capacity - dreams of knocking down a whole flock of deer in one episode, or planned to miss a lot - not really certain which was the thought? Or perhaps, just a very inexpensive thing to buy - which would have had tremendous merit in that place and time. Then the odd 30-06 would show up - almost always a WWII surplus M1917 - head and shoulders past all the rest - 150's for deer, 220's for moose seemed to be the thinking at the time. In his last 20 years of hunting, Dad was buying 165 or 180 grain ammo - I often found that he was loading mixed into same magazine - did not seem to matter to him. He took deer and elk with that.

After he passed, I received his rifle and his small stash of hunting ammo - a mix of Federal, Winchester, Imperial, etc. - various weights from 150 to 220 grain. With scope set at 5 power from sandbags at 100 yard target, I fired about 15 or 18 rounds at same target. The 150's were a couple inches high compared to the rest - in their own cluster. But the 165, 180, 200 (?), maybe one or two 220's made a cluster that I could cover with palm of my hand - perfectly adequate to take game out to 300 yards, which I had seen him do many times, in the 40 plus years that I got to go hunting with him.
 
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According to Hatcher on the match ammo of the WWI up to 1925: "This was all the standard .30 Cal. M 1906 made to the regular specifications calling for a 150 grain flat base cupro-nickel jacketed bullet driven by a charge of approximately 50 grains of Pyro D. G. Powder at a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second, and with an average pressure which varied with the powder lot, but was usually somewhat under 50,000 pounds per square inch.

Given the somewhat spotty availability of Pyro D. G. I think you can pick any powder you feel appropriate. Cupro-Nickel jacketed bullets are also a hard to find item, and I don't know of a source for corrosive primers. Many military rifle shooters are loading cast bullets. They seem to shoot to the sights at 50 yards. There is tons of cast bullet data for the 30-06. It would look like -03 ammo with it's 220 gr RN bullet.

Nitro
 
Thank you, nitro-express. Not real sure that I desire to reproduce the components used, to that detail - especially the part about the corrosive primers. As per posts above, I have some 150 grain Hornady SP on order; still watching to find 150 grain flat base Sierra's. I likely will have to settle for using commercial brass. And Fed 210 primers, because I have some. As per Ganderite's post, I am on the search for IMR 3031 powder. I am well aware of the myriad of loadings listed in various places for 30-06 - as if everyone and their brother has developed a loading for it since 1906!!!
 
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