Duplicate WWI 30-06 loads??

[Paul_T]

FWIW I got a few boxes of M2 ball ammo from a member here and took a couple apart

151.6 gr flat based projectile
47.5 grains powder (one assumes IMR 4895)
Cartridge OAL 3.320 - 3.325

Waiting to chrono it when I take some other reloads out to test

To test what I want to shoot I've loaded Sierra 168 gr match (#2200) over 46, 46.5 and 47 grains IMR4895
COAL 3.335
Basically the M72 Match load as per the provenreloads site posted previously

If that does not shoot as I want it will try the Sierra 155 (#2155) and IMR 4895 or IMR 4064 and replicate the M2 round

 

[BattleRife]

FWIW I got a few boxes of M2 ball ammo from a member here and took a couple apart

Most the stuff I have seen described as .30-06 M2 ball in Canada has the headstamp LC 69. My understanding is it was actually loaded for Mexico and was not made to meet US spec. Not necessarily a quality thing, just different velocity requirements than US DoD had.

 

[bearhunter]

Most the stuff I have seen described as .30-06 M2 ball in Canada has the headstamp LC 69. My understanding is it was actually loaded for Mexico and was not made to meet US spec. Not necessarily a quality thing, just different velocity requirements than US DoD had.

Paul T's ammo was made by Defence Industries during WWII.

 

[Paul_T]

Paul T's ammo was made by Defence Industries during WWII.

Yep, S.A. Ball ammo with D.C.Co. .30 SPG. headstamp with odd Richardson primers (Creighton Elliott Richardson worked for CIL). Non-corrosive.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2188760A/en

 

[conor_90]

Is it true that the “ safari” loads used by Hemingway, TR etc on Rhinos and Grizzlies etc were 150 grain loading a? Sporting ammo didn’t emulate the ‘03 loading? I always associate vintage ‘06 ammo with the 220 grain RN but don’t have any evidence besides stereotypes.

I’ve seen old H&H catalogues advertising 215 .303 as a “ flat shooting, high velocity load”, 150 grain spitzers must have seemed like a 240 wby

 

[Potashminer]

Is it true that the “ safari” loads used by Hemingway, TR etc on Rhinos and Grizzlies etc were 150 grain loading a? Sporting ammo didn’t emulate the ‘03 loading? I always associate vintage ‘06 ammo with the 220 grain RN but don’t have any evidence besides stereotypes.

I’ve seen old H&H catalogues advertising 215 .303 as a “ flat shooting, high velocity load”, 150 grain spitzers must have seemed like a 240 wby

Your first part - I just do not know - I believe the 30-03 loading was 220 grain Round Nose - by 1906, US Army had changed to 30-06 loadings with 150 grain bullets. Reading Bell, etc., those old dudes in the African boonies were often using military ammo - so the FMJ stuff. British 303 military ammo was unusual, I read - they "compiled" with the words of Hague Treaty that they signed - the military ammo was not "expanding" bullets - they were no longer using "Dum-Dum" bullets. But they inserted wood or aluminum into the nose - very light front end, so the FMJ bullet tumbled violently when it hit something - likely was an exceptional game killing bullet, even though it did not expend. I have no clue what Rooseveldt, White, etc. used for ammo, nor any idea of it's construction. Wikipedia says USA did NOT sign the Hague treaties, at least at the time...

 

[bearhunter]

Is it true that the “ safari” loads used by Hemingway, TR etc on Rhinos and Grizzlies etc were 150 grain loading a? Sporting ammo didn’t emulate the ‘03 loading? I always associate vintage ‘06 ammo with the 220 grain RN but don’t have any evidence besides stereotypes.

I’ve seen old H&H catalogues advertising 215 .303 as a “ flat shooting, high velocity load”, 150 grain spitzers must have seemed like a 240 wby

Something to keep in mind about original loadings for such cartridges as the 300H&H, they weren't loaded much hotter than the 30-06 of the same time period.

This was because the powders used during the day were very temperature sensitive and pressures climbed dramaticly in Equatorial heat.

Of course, technology changed all of that.

Also, back in the day FMJ or SOLIDS were considered to be perfectly adequate for hunting dangerous game.

Not sure about the 150 grain bullets but definitely 220 grain for 30 caliber applications.

Karamojo Bell, used the diminutive 6.5 Mannlicher

He shot 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine using the long 159 grain FMJ bullets. He shot 200 pachyderms with the . 303 and the 215 grain army bullet.

 

[Potashminer]

Bell - in one of his books - describes a somewhat tense interaction with a native village - happened to be a herd of zebra heading past - as a demonstration of his capability to the headman - he fired a No. 1 (I think) - 303 British - 10 rounds - took 10 zebra from that herd - meat for the village for days. Apparently a VERY effective demonstration that he and his group were not to be messed with... I do not recall if he mentioned the exact ammo that he used - what was in the rifle, apparently...

 

[LolaPP]

find a copy of Cartridges of the World. There should be historic load data in it.

4831 may have been the first powder used... for sure, that is what Hodgdon got 'tons' of to start his powder business.

I think 4895 is a newer formulation but was also used?

Jerry

IMR 4831 was the powder for 20mm Oerlikon ammo, indeed the very first powder Hodgdon sold.

IMR 4895 was the powder used for .30-06

OP - the Hodgdon site gives load data for "M1 Garand Service Rifle" The load for a 150 gr bullet will duplicate M2 Ball. Don't forget the velocities were measured 78 fr from the muzzle, so an actual "muzzle velocity" published today will be slightly higher.

 

[LolaPP]

Now here's the bit you may find surprising, the Garand can of course be used with M2, but that ammo was not the intended war fodder for it. The Garand was designed for and tested with M1, as everyone thought that was going to be standard once the war stores were used up. And by the time the rifles were in volume production the decision had been made that combat troops would actually be issued .30 APM2, the black-tipped stuff with armour piercing core. This is a 168gr bullet at 2775 fps, and what virtually every frontline US infantryman was given to load his Garand rifle during WWII. M2 ball was used in the Garand for training and stateside use only.

That's an old myth based on some inaccuracies by Canfield and Hatcher I believe. The true version is that in 1943 the decision was taken to make M2 AP the primary round, and it became more predominantly used as the war went on, and it was often preferred. It is absolutely not true however that M2 ball was only used in training and stateside. Apart from shipping and inventory records, there's no shortage of photos showing M2 ball in combat use, and there's also individual accounts where ammo load is discussed in detail.

 

[jethunter]

4895 is my go to starting point for military cartridges, but it's rather fast. 4831 seems slow for use with 150gr. Another powder between is 3031, which of course stands for 303 #1, the powder they replaced cordite with bringing 303 to smokeless. So possible to have been a WW1 powder. Are you trying to develop something that corresponds with the iron sites of a intact 1917? That action is enormously strong, I've had 338wm, and 7rm rifles, still have a 264wm and 416 Rigby.

One last thought, the M2 ball 1938 would be developed to be used in the then brand new M1 Garand. Would think that 4895 was a fast enough powder for the peak pressure to be past, thus not beating up the Garand action.

3031 is a fair bit faster than 4895.

 

[Potashminer]

To duplicate the WW1 load, use a flat base 150 gr bullet. This would also probably be the most accurate. I use the Hornady soft point.

Use 3031. Load 5 of each 40 gr to 48gr, in 1 gr increments. See what shoots best. My rifle likes 44.

Is perhaps an unusual combination - most references seem to go to "max out" for velocity, these days. IMR 3031 not listed in Speer #14 or Hornady #9 for 30-06 and 150 grain, but I found it listed in Sierra V and Lyman 49 - and Lyman did use Hornady #3031 bullets for their testing. I did get some flat base Hornady 150 grain (#3031) and some IMR 3031 powder. So I will be following your suggestion. To paraphrase "Speedy Gonzales" (I think) - "I really do not care how fast these are going, when they go through the paper..." I think the original quote was from him or that Virgil guy in the Houston Warehouse - "if the bullet is going through the same hole as the last one did, I really do not care how fast it is going..."

 

[LolaPP]

Is perhaps an unusual combination - most references seem to go to "max out" for velocity, these days. IMR 3031 not listed in Speer #14 or Hornady #9 for 30-06 and 150 grain, but I found it listed in Sierra V and Lyman 49 - and Lyman did use Hornady #3031 bullets for their testing. I did get some flat base Hornady 150 grain (#3031) and some IMR 3031 powder. So I will be following your suggestion. To paraphrase "Speedy Gonzales" (I think) - "I really do not care how fast these are going, when they go through the paper..." I think the original quote was from him or that Virgil guy in the Houston Warehouse - "if the bullet is going through the same hole as the last one did, I really do not care how fast it is going..."

I'm surprised ay all the discussion - to me, you asked a very simple question, which was how to duplicate the original USGI .30-06 loads. You're dead right - you're not the first, nor even the millionth, and the load data is available in detail for most of the USGI rounds.

The problem with replicating true M1906 ammo is the cupro nickel jacketed bullets, the powder and the potassium chlorate primers They just aren't available any more. The closest would be a 150 gr flat base gilding metal jacketed bullet, IMR 4895 and any suitable primer.

M1 Ball, IMR 4895 and the 173 gr SMK would be the closest available bullet. PC primers not available.

M2 Ball, IMR 4895 and any 150 gr FB FMJ with a cannalure. PC primers not available.

M2AP, IMR 4895 and load up pulled surplus bullets. They're still available. PC primers not available. I've never seen GI load data, but a 165 gr bullet and IMR 4895 is far from new ground...work up until you hit the specified MV. That's how they did it originally for each powder lot.

Using IMR 4895 as originally used will provide the same recoil, muzzle blast, etc etc, because it's the same powder or as close as you can get without finding antique cans of MR 20 or Pyro DG for the earlier rounds. IMR 4895 is the successor to them.Brass won't make really any difference as far as similitude goes, but you could always find GI brass if you really wanted. I'd be inclined to just load from new. It won't make any perceptible difference in the shooting.

Tons and tons of articles on CMP and other sites about duplication of GI loads. Also as I said, the data on Hodgdon's site. The spec was for a specific MV, not a certain charge weight. They'd modify load data by powder lot so the arsenals could churn out a consistent product. Load IMR 4895 until you achieve the spec'd MV and you're done. Correct bullet, correct velocity, correct powder. Not rocket surgery.

 

[Brutus]

With IMR-3031 for a Garand I used NRA published load data for my 150 grain bullet, which I cannot remember the brand.
The 300 yard group with standard irons was very impressive.
This same load data was later published June(?) 1989 Handloader magazine. Chapter on loading for semi-auto rifles.

 

[Paul_T]

FWIW I got a few boxes of M2 ball ammo from a member here and took a couple apart

151.6 gr flat based projectile
47.5 grains powder (one assumes IMR 4895)
Cartridge OAL 3.320 - 3.325

Waiting to chrono it when I take some other reloads out to test

To test what I want to shoot I've loaded Sierra 168 gr match (#2200) over 46, 46.5 and 47 grains IMR4895
COAL 3.335
Basically the M72 Match load as per the provenreloads site posted previously

If that does not shoot as I want it will try the Sierra 155 (#2155) and IMR 4895 or IMR 4064 and replicate the M2 round

S.A. Ball ammo with D.C.Co. .30 SPG. headstamp with odd Richardson primers (Creighton Elliott Richardson worked for CIL). Non-corrosive.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2188760A/en

Finally got out yesterday with the Labradar

WWII DIL M2 Ball ammo averaged 2840fps (from what I can find published should be about 2800, so that checks)

For the 168 gr M72 'Match' loads I did:

46.0gr was 2537fps -most accurate in my rifle but needs more accuracy testing @100yds
46.5gr was 2584fps
47.0gr was 2614fps

I've got a box of Sierra 155's I might replicate the M2 with but I'm sure with what I will be using the rifle for the 168's will be the way I go.

 

[Potashminer]

Sometimes we wander off on good discussions - my original concern was a loading that would follow the M1917 rifle's sight settings - those rifles made in WWI to use the 1906 loading - all the rest about M1, M2 and Garand loads came much later - decades later, in some cases. I have not been terribly impressed with how commercial 150's have worked - I suspect they are too fast, but do not know, or care about that "why" part - and, as typical - I still have the suggested Hornady bullets and IMR 3031 powder to try out - have not done anything with them, except move from shelf to shelf ...