Ear Trauma with Frontier 358
- Thread starter Whelen B
- Start date
- Location
- Saskatchewan
There is no such thing as a firearm that will not damage your hearing. Even a .22 RF can cause hearing damage over time. Damage is cumulative, irreversible, and permanent. You don't notice until it is too late. This information is all well documented, and I know from experience. Avoid brakes, short barrels, and Use hearing protection!
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Forewarned, is forewarned, but its in your head
6 inches of difference at the decibel level of your rifle going off isnt going to change the SPL more than one decibel, and the frequency will be close to the same. I heard all of this hoopalah when I bought my first 14 inch 870... the only thing increased is the muzzleflash. Get a decibel meter, (or talk your local car audio shop into letting you borrow theirs).
The proof is in the numbers.
Incorrect. (and yes, the proof....not "theory".....is in the science.)
The two sounds you hear when you pull the trigger is the sound of the explosion, followed by the supersonic crack of the projectile. The short barrel produces MORE noise during the first sound (explosion)
Now, I can see where your opinion comes from, and from a simplistic POV it even makes sense that equivelent cartridges will produce the same SPL....but it really isn't that simple. There are two factors to address in this scenario, one being directionsl SPL and the second being that of expanding gasses. The first: Grab that SPL meter you were talking about, put it directly inline with one of your tweets and crank it up....take a reading.
Now, move the SPL mike a foot to the side....even though the VOLUME of music is the same, the SP level will drop. A shorter barrel produces a shorter, more direct path to your ear, and therefore higher sound pressure levels.
The second factor, gas expansion, actually produces more VOLUME than a longer barrel. The reason is simple: The "explosion" you hear is rapidly expanding gasses hitting the air. A long barrel forces the gasses push the bullet farther, and therefore slow down more than a short barrel. The resulting slower gasses produce less noise volume than super fast ones from a short barrel. You can demonstrate this to yourself with a very simple experiment using .22 CB's. Put a CB into a 24" barreled rifle and shoot. You won't hear a bang at all...in fact, you will hear the hammer drop on the firing pin. Now, put another CB into a pistol (wear hearing protection). You will hear a loud bang....as loud as a high velocity round. Now..same bullet, same powder casing, WAY more volume of sound....why?
Because the long barrel slows the gasses from the CB so much that by the time they lleave the barrel they have stopped expanding and have slowed down so much they make no sound. With the pistol, the gasses are still expanding when they hit the air, and are going super fast...hence the big bang.
So, contrary to what you thought, a short barrel actually gets you two ways: It produces MORE noise, AND directs it more "at" you.
Simple answer is: Yes...short barrels are louder than long ones.
Bull#### on the expanding gases out of a longer barrel.
we're talking centrefire high pressure calibers. There is a tonne of pressure volume coming out of the barrel.
Sure, if your shooting a hornet out of a 30 inch barrel, maybe, or...
By your theory, a longer barrel'd rifle, you shouldnt even her a bang, just the sound of the bullet breaking the speed of sound...
Your joking right?
Good analogy wit the CB's... .4 grains of powder couldnt volumetrically fill a 24 inch barrel like 43 grains of 4350.
5 gr's of bluedot out of a 38 isnt 43 gr's of 4350, so you are partially right...
Apples to apples please...
Did you proofread this ####?
THose expanding gases are SOUND PRESSURE, and carries a frequency.
SOUND PRESSURE is measured in decibels. Yes, I have mic'd 158 DB systems with 22 12's for "expanding gases" next to the cones/ports where the air is moving, and in the "sweet spot"
Simplistic? hardly.
Yes, you hear the sound pressure SPL, and frequency before you hear the sonic boom. (Expanding gases move at about 4700 FPS give or take 500 FPS,
And the speed of sound is 4 times slower) with a difference of about .00004 seconds, you can tell the difference between the two?
Not likely, but with a spectrum analyzer, you can, and measure their dwell time.
Regardless of speed, it is still measured in Sound pressure level, or SPL, and frequency.
The caliber powder, and projectile have more to do with SPL, and frequency than the barrel length. But Being as your not so simplistic, you would have known that. can you tell me why my 243 winchester is the loudest rifle I own? And it wears a 22 inch tube. Its expanding gases carry a much higher frequency than my 338, ported 45-70, or 14 inch 12 guage with 3 inch BRI's. Whistle, and you'll know why.
Are you a hearing doctor, or acoustic engineer? I dont see any "science" in your response, only theories. With a mic, you can measure SPL and frequency EXACTLY, not "the two sounds you hear" you only hear one sound Genious. Its made up of a frequency range in a given SPL range.
and it has the potential to affect you in two ways.
Frequency loss, and hearing loss. both are detremental, and such, but are different.
I would be more than happy to mic it, and prove you wrong. My 356 I had's muzzle resides nearly the exact same distance as the muzzle on the 358 frontier from my ears.
Bigredd has a 356, and my buddy has a 358 frontier.
same cartridge, 4 inches difference in barrel length.
we're talking centrefire high pressure calibers. There is a tonne of pressure volume coming out of the barrel.
Sure, if your shooting a hornet out of a 30 inch barrel, maybe, or...
By your theory, a longer barrel'd rifle, you shouldnt even her a bang, just the sound of the bullet breaking the speed of sound...
Your joking right?
Good analogy wit the CB's... .4 grains of powder couldnt volumetrically fill a 24 inch barrel like 43 grains of 4350.
5 gr's of bluedot out of a 38 isnt 43 gr's of 4350, so you are partially right...
Apples to apples please...
Did you proofread this ####?
THose expanding gases are SOUND PRESSURE, and carries a frequency.
SOUND PRESSURE is measured in decibels. Yes, I have mic'd 158 DB systems with 22 12's for "expanding gases" next to the cones/ports where the air is moving, and in the "sweet spot"
Simplistic? hardly.
Yes, you hear the sound pressure SPL, and frequency before you hear the sonic boom. (Expanding gases move at about 4700 FPS give or take 500 FPS,
And the speed of sound is 4 times slower) with a difference of about .00004 seconds, you can tell the difference between the two?
Not likely, but with a spectrum analyzer, you can, and measure their dwell time.
Regardless of speed, it is still measured in Sound pressure level, or SPL, and frequency.
The caliber powder, and projectile have more to do with SPL, and frequency than the barrel length. But Being as your not so simplistic, you would have known that. can you tell me why my 243 winchester is the loudest rifle I own? And it wears a 22 inch tube. Its expanding gases carry a much higher frequency than my 338, ported 45-70, or 14 inch 12 guage with 3 inch BRI's. Whistle, and you'll know why.
Are you a hearing doctor, or acoustic engineer? I dont see any "science" in your response, only theories. With a mic, you can measure SPL and frequency EXACTLY, not "the two sounds you hear" you only hear one sound Genious. Its made up of a frequency range in a given SPL range.
and it has the potential to affect you in two ways.
Frequency loss, and hearing loss. both are detremental, and such, but are different.
I would be more than happy to mic it, and prove you wrong. My 356 I had's muzzle resides nearly the exact same distance as the muzzle on the 358 frontier from my ears.
Bigredd has a 356, and my buddy has a 358 frontier.
same cartridge, 4 inches difference in barrel length.
Last edited:
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
My my my.
A: You DO here two sounds. 1. Gas 2. Sonic crack Just because you here them at virtually the same time doesn't mean it's not 2 seperate sounds.
B: Please DO mic it genius...make sure you post the results.
C: It's acousticAL Engineer, and yes......I are one
Former owner/lead developer R.S. Audio, Former owner AUTOSONICS.
Yup. I was doing D/A conversion on IASCA winners before you figured out how to wire an amp. But please...humour us. I'll lend my old SPL meter if it'll help.
The question wasn't if a long barreled gun was quiet...regardless of barrel length it's going to be loud....hey, its a gun. The question was if short barrels were louder. They are.
In firearm related terms:
A Pistol will ALWAYS be louder than a carbine with the same cartridge-shorter barrel is the only reason
A carbine will ALWAYS be louder than a long barreled rifle with the same cartridge-Shorter barrel is the only reason
A Suppressor works because it slows expanding gasses-same effect as a longer barrel.
My post is based on more than "Well...my buddy has the same caliber as me, and his gun doesn't sound louder"...it's based on published data and basic physics...you know..."real" information? But tell ya what...if you want to base everything on "observations", there are thousands of Gunnutz on here with tons of shooting exoperience...why not start a poll? "ARE SHORT BARRELS LOUDER?" and look at a much broader cross section than that of you, your buddy and Big Red. Whatchathink?
Last edited:
There is likely a good chance we've met than.
Sorry, my car audio experience started in 1994 out this way, so you can guess which shops I've worked with/at.
With a few SPL trophies from the late 90's.
Your telling me that 4 inches of barrel, not 4 inch pistol barrel to 20 inch carbine will make such a NOTICABLE difference in frequency and SPL that it will cause noticably louder noise and spl? Not likely. that 4-6 inches is a moot point.
If you've got a meter, I'll bring the guns, and we'll lay this to rest...
wanna put 20 bucks on it?
Sorry, my car audio experience started in 1994 out this way, so you can guess which shops I've worked with/at.
With a few SPL trophies from the late 90's.
Your telling me that 4 inches of barrel, not 4 inch pistol barrel to 20 inch carbine will make such a NOTICABLE difference in frequency and SPL that it will cause noticably louder noise and spl? Not likely. that 4-6 inches is a moot point.
If you've got a meter, I'll bring the guns, and we'll lay this to rest...
wanna put 20 bucks on it?
Last edited:
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
LOL...1994? I sold my second company (autosonics) before you even got in the game. Anyway, back at the topic at hand, and I really dont want to have a pissing contest with you....but yes. 4" makes a huge diff....and it's for 2 distinct reasons.
I'll put it car audio terms then: Unlike SPL from a 40 hz sub, gunfire is not omnidirectional.....the frequency is more in the midrange, and therefore more directional. So....Shut off the amps to the subs in a system, and put the mic directly infront of a 4 1/4" mid (the "sweet spot") and bring it to 80 db. Then move the mic 4" to the side...you'll see a decrease. The effect is that the path of the sound energy is not only having to travel further to the mic, you are out of the band of most intense and accurate sound (aka timbre) and catching the fringe ...and it's not as loud.
So the first factor is essentially that the muzzle is 4" closer to your ear....and believe it or not, that is a noticible diff.
The second factor is the gas expansion.....gas expanding makes noise...lots of it. In a long barrel, the gas has finished expanding (or close to it) by the time the cork (the bullet) leaves the barrel, so the gas, in effect, leaves the barrel at the speed it has managed to propel the projectile to. (for this example, lets say 2000 FPS.) In a short barreled gun, the powder is still burning when the bullet leaves the muzzle...guess what? THAT gas is hitting the air at 5000 FPS....bigger "bang".
The CB example I used IS a good one. From a 26" barrel they are silent, but from a 10" barel they are stupid loud.....it's the gas escaping the shorter barrel, granted we are talking about a smaller volume....but it's not the volume of gas (primarily) that makes the sound...it's the speed. Whether its a .22 rf or a 416, the powder produces gas at the same speed (dependant on powder of course...but you get my point)
Oh yeah....And I just got back from the range....wanna make it 1000.00?
I'll put it car audio terms then: Unlike SPL from a 40 hz sub, gunfire is not omnidirectional.....the frequency is more in the midrange, and therefore more directional. So....Shut off the amps to the subs in a system, and put the mic directly infront of a 4 1/4" mid (the "sweet spot") and bring it to 80 db. Then move the mic 4" to the side...you'll see a decrease. The effect is that the path of the sound energy is not only having to travel further to the mic, you are out of the band of most intense and accurate sound (aka timbre) and catching the fringe ...and it's not as loud.
So the first factor is essentially that the muzzle is 4" closer to your ear....and believe it or not, that is a noticible diff.
The second factor is the gas expansion.....gas expanding makes noise...lots of it. In a long barrel, the gas has finished expanding (or close to it) by the time the cork (the bullet) leaves the barrel, so the gas, in effect, leaves the barrel at the speed it has managed to propel the projectile to. (for this example, lets say 2000 FPS.) In a short barreled gun, the powder is still burning when the bullet leaves the muzzle...guess what? THAT gas is hitting the air at 5000 FPS....bigger "bang".
The CB example I used IS a good one. From a 26" barrel they are silent, but from a 10" barel they are stupid loud.....it's the gas escaping the shorter barrel, granted we are talking about a smaller volume....but it's not the volume of gas (primarily) that makes the sound...it's the speed. Whether its a .22 rf or a 416, the powder produces gas at the same speed (dependant on powder of course...but you get my point)
Oh yeah....And I just got back from the range....wanna make it 1000.00?
Last edited:
Hey - wow - I'm learning - not exactly sure what? I bit over my head I'll admit.
Perhaps you boys could answer me this. Does the shape of a muzzle crown affect the trauma to the shooter's ears.
My gunsmith put something like an angled flat target crown on my first 35Whelen - not the normal hunting crown shape. It wore a 20" barrel and I was loading it to top levels - between 2600-2700MV with 250s at the time experimenting. To my ears it was always easy on them shooting it. But some at the range around began calling the rifle the "canon" because of the loud booming sound. I've shot big game in the woods with this gun and it has never hurt my ears that I'm aware of anyway. But my 12 gauge grouse gun hurts my ears though.
Just wonderin.
Perhaps you boys could answer me this. Does the shape of a muzzle crown affect the trauma to the shooter's ears.
My gunsmith put something like an angled flat target crown on my first 35Whelen - not the normal hunting crown shape. It wore a 20" barrel and I was loading it to top levels - between 2600-2700MV with 250s at the time experimenting. To my ears it was always easy on them shooting it. But some at the range around began calling the rifle the "canon" because of the loud booming sound. I've shot big game in the woods with this gun and it has never hurt my ears that I'm aware of anyway. But my 12 gauge grouse gun hurts my ears though.
Just wonderin.
RevolverRodger
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in QC
Ok what are the best ear muffs out there for hunting and for range use ???
The shorter path to the ear thing might be plausible.
The gas thing? I don't know. I'm having a hard time thinking the gas going 3000fps behind the bullet from a 22" barrel is appreciably less noisy than the gas going 2900fps behind a bullet from an 18.5" barrel.
Is this thinking flawed? I think I remember reading somewhere that the maximum gas speed from a nitrocellulose-based propellent is something like 6200fps. The thing limiting the speed of the gas in the barrel is of course the bullet. The gas is still pushing the bullet at the end of the barrel, no? Then at the instant the bullet clears the barrel the gas must be travelling at the same speed as the bullet, faster in a longer barrel than a short one.
But what happen immediately after that? Does the gas speed up to maximum? Or does it start to slow because it can expand in every direction? Anyone know?
The gas thing? I don't know. I'm having a hard time thinking the gas going 3000fps behind the bullet from a 22" barrel is appreciably less noisy than the gas going 2900fps behind a bullet from an 18.5" barrel.
Is this thinking flawed? I think I remember reading somewhere that the maximum gas speed from a nitrocellulose-based propellent is something like 6200fps. The thing limiting the speed of the gas in the barrel is of course the bullet. The gas is still pushing the bullet at the end of the barrel, no? Then at the instant the bullet clears the barrel the gas must be travelling at the same speed as the bullet, faster in a longer barrel than a short one.
But what happen immediately after that? Does the gas speed up to maximum? Or does it start to slow because it can expand in every direction? Anyone know?
I always had sensitive hearing. My ears rang for two days after the first session with the AK at the range. I therefore tried to protect my ears when possible.
A few seasons ago I spotted a family of grouse and I had just the medicine for it. A 12" ,410 shotgun. I tried to find the earplugs that were tied around my neck and I couldn't find them fast enough. I said to myself.... nevermind.... It can't be that bad. 7 shots and 5 grouse after my ears were ringing so loud that I felt like under a church bell and I was lightly disoriented.
Two ATV's came up , both guys saying that they surely heard their buddy's 7 Rem UM..... I assured them it was not the case. Neither believed me that the little .410 made that noise. Normally I would have shot it one more time to prove it.... but shooting another shell was out of the question. I took my grouse to my vehicle and checked my ears for blood, or any other liquid.... Nothing.
The ringing persisted for two weeks . I'm talking about ringing, not just a faint sound. I searched on the web and asked my friends that work in the field about the use of going to a doctor. They all said that the doctor could assess the damage, but help he could not.... so I didn't bother.
To this day I cannot hear the sound made by loose powder in a cartridge, with my left ear. My right ear is ok.
So given my empirical experience in the matter of sound and the damage it makes, I can say that the bbl length is of GREAT importance in the danger it possesses for our hearing.
I have something to ad to what Wrongway said: not only the expanding gases and the sonic boom, but also the distance from the muzzle. My left ear is damaged, my right one is ok.
WEAR EAR PROTECTION.
A few seasons ago I spotted a family of grouse and I had just the medicine for it. A 12" ,410 shotgun. I tried to find the earplugs that were tied around my neck and I couldn't find them fast enough. I said to myself.... nevermind.... It can't be that bad. 7 shots and 5 grouse after my ears were ringing so loud that I felt like under a church bell and I was lightly disoriented.
Two ATV's came up , both guys saying that they surely heard their buddy's 7 Rem UM..... I assured them it was not the case. Neither believed me that the little .410 made that noise. Normally I would have shot it one more time to prove it.... but shooting another shell was out of the question. I took my grouse to my vehicle and checked my ears for blood, or any other liquid.... Nothing.
The ringing persisted for two weeks . I'm talking about ringing, not just a faint sound. I searched on the web and asked my friends that work in the field about the use of going to a doctor. They all said that the doctor could assess the damage, but help he could not.... so I didn't bother.
To this day I cannot hear the sound made by loose powder in a cartridge, with my left ear. My right ear is ok.
So given my empirical experience in the matter of sound and the damage it makes, I can say that the bbl length is of GREAT importance in the danger it possesses for our hearing.
I have something to ad to what Wrongway said: not only the expanding gases and the sonic boom, but also the distance from the muzzle. My left ear is damaged, my right one is ok.
WEAR EAR PROTECTION.
As an addition, there is a lot of hearing damage from just a little .22LR. My ears ring all day every day, sometimes in two tones. I attribute this to my youth shooting .22 out in the bush, and at the range. In the last 10 years the ringing has stopped twice, for less than 10 minutes. I have worn ear protection ever since.
Eyes AND ears, you only get two of each, and healing after injury is not always possible.
cover up!
Eyes AND ears, you only get two of each, and healing after injury is not always possible.
cover up!
My Savage 10FP turns a lot of heads on the line as well, and it has a 20" barrel.
"Man that thing can BARK!" as an old fellow put it.
Still not as bad as sitting next to Pete1 and his ported monster. If I develop lung cancer in the future, it was because of that faithful day.
*Cough cough*
"Man that thing can BARK!" as an old fellow put it.
Still not as bad as sitting next to Pete1 and his ported monster. If I develop lung cancer in the future, it was because of that faithful day.
*Cough cough*
