Eddystone M17 (P17) Magazine

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Buzzard

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I recently acquired a ‘sporterized’ Eddystone M17 (or P17? Still a little unclear on that) from my Dad who had it sitting in the closet for years. As I am new to the gun world, I have been researching it to find out what it is/ what kind of a shooter it has the potential to be. Through reading the previous posts it sounds like it has some potential and will let me establish some skills of which I currently have none!
Anyway my question arises from a recent cleaning I did of the gun with a far more knowledgeable friend’s assistance. Everything seems to be in good working order, short of 20 years of crap in the barrel and the magazine floor plate. From what I can see it has a hinge pin on the front side and some sort of locking mechanism on the rear which would have had a release device on it at one time. This button/switch/lever is now missing and we could not figure out how the release works to open the floor plate. Could this have been a by-product of the sport modifications? Does anyone know if there was a reason for having removed this or was it simply broken? What are the chances parts to fix this would still be available?
Also the magazine spring has some issues with it, currently there is nothing attaching the spring to the magazine floor. Is this standard or has mine again, had some modification? If that is stock how does the magazine empty without the spring/follower also ending up on the ground?
Hopefully this is the correct place for these questions and someone will be able to help me out,

Thanks!:)
 
30-06 Rifle Model 1917 :D

and Pattern '14

Just that the British and Americans had different methods of naming their rifles.

Next I suspect that the floor plate release is just hard to use as these were really top loaders and not designed to have the floorplates opened except for the odd time when cleaning.

picures will tell the story
 
IF it's been that long since it was completely disassembled, it would be a good idea to take everything appart and clean it all. It's a lot simpler to see how things work and what goes where once the stock is removed. You can then better identified if anything is missing or broken.

Have fun with the ild lady,

Lou
 
Not quite, Chopper.

woodchopper said:
30-06 Rifle Model 1917 :D

and Pattern '14

Just that the British and Americans had different methods of naming their rifles.

Next I suspect that the floor plate release is just hard to use as these were really top loaders and not designed to have the floorplates opened except for the odd time when cleaning.

picures will tell the story
Click to expand...

Back in 1913 the Brits were playing with a new round and a mauser style action they called the Pattern 13, like everyone else, they wanted a smaller, faster round (.276) round. The had contracted with several companies, details don't matter at this point, to have them made, when along came WWI. Having lots of surplus .303 ammo and needing rifles to shoot it, they had those various companies re-tool the actions for .303, the Pattern 14. When the Brit armouries got up to speed, they simply cancelled the contracts. Those actions and finished rifles stood around for a few more years when, lo and behold, the Yanks got involved in WWI. And they needed rifles. The round of the day was the 30-'06 so they rebarrelled all of those left-over rifles, called them the Pattern 17 .30-06, and issued them.

Chopper is right about the floor plate and follwer spring. They are not meant to be opened except when detail stripped. Rounds were ejected one at a time to empty the magazine.
 
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I don't believe that the previous post is quite right. It is my understanding that the P14s were NOT rebarelled in U.S. The companies were tooled up and ready to manufacture these rifles when the British cancelled the contracts. They were cheaper and easier to make than SMLE's. The U.S. desperately needed rifles and couldn't supply enough Springfields. They had the tooling converted to make them in 30-06, actually having more of them in WWI than they did Springfields.
 
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A quick 'net search found this. We're talking WWI (1914-1918) production here here not WWII (1939-1945).

The U.S. Model of 1917 Winchester is a Model 1917 Enfield Military Rifle manufactured from 1917 - 1918, in this case, by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company of New Haven CT.

It is a modified Mauser-type bolt action rifle chambered in 30-06. It has a 26� barrel, 5-shot box magazine, adjustable rear site, and blade front site, supported by a military type stock with a semi-pistol grip. Weight is 9.25 pounds.

It was designed after the English .303 caliber P14 Enfield (Pattern 14) that was being manufactured in the U.S at the time for the British government by three gun U.S. manufacturers: Winchester Repeating Arms Company of New Haven CT, Remington Arms Company of Ilion NY, and Remington Arms Company of DE (actually located in Eddystone PA, later the Midvale Steel & Ordnance Company).

In 1917, the U.S. Government contracted with these three firms to manufacture the same rifle for the U.S. armed forces, only chambered in 30-06. Over 2 million were produced, with the majority surplused (not distributed for service). None were made after WWI, but the U.S. later supplied over 1 million of this surplus of these rifles to Britain during WWII.
 
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rookie wildcat said:
Back in 1913 the Brits were playing with a new round and a mauser style action they called the Pattern 13, like everyone else, they wanted a smaller, faster round (.276) round. The had contracted with several companies, details don't matter at this point, to have them made, when along came WWII. Having lots of surplus .303 ammo and needing rifles to shoot it, they had those various companies re-tool the actions for .303, the Pattern 14. When the Brit armouries got up to speed, they simply cancelled the contracts. Those actions and finished rifles stood around for a few more years when, lo and behold, the Yanks got involved in WWII. And they needed rifles. The round of the day was the 30-'06 so they rebarrelled all of those left-over rifles, called them the Pattern 17 .30-06, and issued them.

Chopper is right about the floor plate and follwer spring. They are not meant to be opened except when detail stripped. Rounds were ejected one at a time to empty the magazine.
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well not really ;)

The production of Patt'14 was completed before the Americans re-tooled for production of 30-06 Model 17's. Both the British and Americans were desperate for arms when they suddenly found themselves at War. I beleive that the British army was only around 500000 when WW1 started and ended up around 7 million, so there were no piles of unused Patt'14 rifles sitting around, particulary not in 1916 or 1917. The Americans could not produce enough '03 rifles to equip their troops for overseas deployment not to mention other muntitions, they actually ended up using a lot of French artillary machineguns and tanks. Of a side note the Canadian army finally officially ditched the Ross in the summer of 1917 so there is another pile of enfields (well actually 1/4 Canadians had taken it upon themselved to 'reissue' themselves with enfields allready :D )

Ok where was I.... Patt'13 were being developed ann a new ammo was being developed ~7mm short rimless round - 276Enfield. The Patt'13 was considered a better and stronger action, so when the British contracted US companies for arms they set up the factories to produce the Patt'13 but in 303 british - now named the Patt'14. They stayed with the 303 because they had rifles and MG's allready in 303 and they had ammo in stock, and the factories wre set up to produce more. Austrailia and India were also producing No1 Enfields. Changing ammo and rifles before a major conflict would be a disaster, even if the new round was better.

So yes your mostly correct except that Patt'14 recievers were not rebarreled to 30-06 :D
 
Oh and the US ended up with more Model 17 Enfield rifles overseas then Model 03 Springfields

The M'17 were used in WW2 as second line rifles for training, home guard, etc... and some British and Canadian support troops that were attached to US formations ended up with M'17 rifles to simplify the supply issues.
 
Sorry, facts may have been a little wrong.

Already corrected the slip of WWII,
and I stand corrected. And I cannot quote my osurce but I was definitely under the impression that when the british cancelled the contract for the P-14's they left the US plants holding numerous unfinished barrelled actions. Never my intention to pass along erroneous info.
Quick net search just to check.
"During the Boer War the British were faced with accurate long-range fire from the famous Mauser rifles, model 1895, in 7x57mm caliber. This smaller, high-velocity round prompted the War Department to develop their own "magnum" round in 1910, using a .276 calibre cartridge. A modified Mauser-pattern rifle was built to fire it, the Pattern 1913 Enfield (P13); effective mass production was still a ways off when World War I started, to say nothing of the logistical nightmare of introducing a new rifle cartridge in wartime, so nothing came of this.

Adapting the same mechanism to fire the standard .303 round led to the Rifle, .303 Pattern 1914 (P14), a competent design fed from a five-round internal magazine. The action was a hybrid of the Lee and Mauser actions, with the rifle half-cocking on opening and full cocking on close (this was due to rapid-fire related heating making the standard Mauser action difficult to operate quickly). The primary contractor (Vickers) was unable to produce more than a handful of rifles, so the P14 became a de facto afterthought. The SMLE therefore remained the standard British rifle during World War I and beyond.

The need for additional small arms combined with a complete lack of spare industrial capacity led the British government to contract with two U.S. commercial arms manufacturers, Winchester, Remington and Eddystone (a subsidiary of Remington set up principally to manufacture the P14) to produce the P14 for the British before the US entered the war in 1917. However, each factory produced parts from their own designs, leading to interchangeability issues; Winchester was particularly troublesome in this regard, going so far as to refuse for months to change to the new Mk I* standard. Therefore, the official designation of the rifle was dependent upon its manufacturer: e.g., the Pattern 1914 Mk I W is a Mk I of Winchester manufacture, R would be Remington, or E for Eddystone. The P14's principal combat use during WWI was as a sniper rifle, since it was deemed to be more accurate than the SMLE at longer ranges, either in standard issue form or with modified or telescopic sights (modified and telescopic sights were used only on Winchester-manufactured rifles, the Winchesters being thought to be of superior quality).

When the U.S. entered the war, the P14 was modified and standardized by the U.S. Ordnance Department and went into production at the same factories as had produced the P14, production of that rifle having ceased, as the Model of 1917, commonly M1917 Enfield, chambered for the standard US 30-06 cartridge and enjoyed some success as a complement for the Springfield M1903 rifles which were America's official standard issue, soon far surpassing the Springfield in total production and breadth of issue.

Prior to and during World War II, the P14 was used, after undergoing modification ("Weedon repair standard", formally the Mk II standard) in Britain as a rearguard rifle, primarily to equip the WWII Home Guard. The rifle was also used again as a sniper rifle, the configuration being different from the WWI incarnation. Additionally, the US also sent some M1917 rifles to the UK under Lend-Lease, though the different ammunition requirements limited use and necessitated clearly marking the rifles as being non-standard. The Australian Army also used some quantities of the sniper variant of the P14 during World War II."

Thanks, Chopper.
 
Hey thanks for all the info! It seems there is a lot of information here I was not expecting to get! For a little clarification on the magazine floorplate I have taken a couple pics. Unfortunately the gun has been reassembled after we finished cleaning so these are all i could get.
So from reading the responses I get the impression it was never an easy opening magazine but rather an option for cleaning, that makes sense based on what I am seeing. I had just assumed that there would have been a way of quickly unloading the magazine and this looked like it to me, but i guess i assumed wrong!
Anyway when the gun was disassembled we both made an attempt at opening this magazine floor but to no avail. We are not experts but not complete idiots either so I would like to think that there might be something wrong with it/ it might be stuck. Does anyone have one of these that might be familiar with how exactly you go about opening it? Again thanks for all the information to this point i really appreciate it...:D

Rifle005.jpg

Rifle002.jpg

Rifle004.jpg
 
Buzzard said:
Hey thanks for all the info! It seems there is a lot of information here I was not expecting to get! For a little clarification on the magazine floorplate I have taken a couple pics. Unfortunately the gun has been reassembled after we finished cleaning so these are all i could get.
So from reading the responses I get the impression it was never an easy opening magazine but rather an option for cleaning, that makes sense based on what I am seeing. I had just assumed that there would have been a way of quickly unloading the magazine and this looked like it to me, but i guess i assumed wrong!
Anyway when the gun was disassembled we both made an attempt at opening this magazine floor but to no avail. We are not experts but not complete idiots either so I would like to think that there might be something wrong with it/ it might be stuck. Does anyone have one of these that might be familiar with how exactly you go about opening it? Again thanks for all the information to this point i really appreciate it...:D

Rifle005.jpg

Rifle002.jpg

Rifle004.jpg
Click to expand...

All right, this one I know I got! I have 3 p-14's. Okay, buzzard, place the rifle floor plat up in a maintenance rest if you have one. Using a drift, in the hole at the rear of the plate, depress the latch (it may actually take a sharp rap with a small hammer), Slide the plate a little to the rear and it should lift out. The follower and spring should be attached in mounting slots to the floor plate. You can slide that out and clean away.
 
Well - Somebody spent some time sporting that rifle. The original trigger guard was bent in the front to accomodate a swell in the stock. It was fashionable to reshape the triggerguard to be flat, with changes to the stock to match.
As above, you can remove the floorplate by depressing the button in the recess - use a chopstick or something similar if you dont want to mangle the bluing. A shot of WD 40 would help, given the age of the rifle.
The mag spring slips into slots in the floorplate, however, the original may have been modified to accomodate the above mod - perhaps thats why its loose. Good Luck..
 
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That's pretty well the standard way to open the floor plate on Mauser action rifles, designed to be done with a bullet tip:

" To remove magazine floor plate. Insert the point of a bullet or a pointed tool into the small hole in the magazine floor plate, and exert pressure while at the same time pushing the floor plate toward the trigger guard. This will release the catch and the magazine floor-plate spring and follower can then be removed and broken down into their separate units. Further stripping is not usually necessary."
 
rookie wildcat said:
That we could LOL!
I bow before you, Sensei. :eek: Not usually caught like that. Thanks for adding to my stores and correcting me.
Click to expand...

On the Remington 30 Express, which is just a worked over (a bit) P17, that little, round projection on the back of the floor plate, is the opener. The point of a fmj military round is pushed in the centre of it, and the floor plate opens.
 
VICTORY! Thanks everyone for your help, turns out it was a little stuck (which makes me feel better) but some mild encouragement once I knew the process made it come right apart. So thanks again and I will know where to look when I have any other problems! :D
 
Just a small add. While the M1917 rifles went to the Home Guard in WW2 (due to the problems of supplying ammo out of country), after Dunkirk, ANYTHING that would chamber a .303 was pressed into service. There are pics of the P14 in North Africa, and there was another pic of commando's in a landing craft with half having SMLE's and the other half with P14's.
I have a No1 Mk6 that was dragged out of storage and fitted with No4Mk1 timber. (had two, but sold one to a friend)
 
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