(edited title) Museum's inventory: Bren Mk I, Mk II and Mk IIM.

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dauph197

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Hi Guys,

Not an easy morning here... have to move around with some machine guns!! It is far to be easy... these things are heavy!! :p

So, the collection has 5 Bren machine guns. I will post few pictures. They won't be clear as I'm stuck with my iPhone if I want to work a bit. I can't spend all my time taking pictures but I would like to do it!

Anyway, we have Bren marked with 7.92, with Bren Mk II and with Bren Mk IIM. What is the difference even with all of them on the table, I can see any difference.

Are these Mk I?











Mk II







Mk IIM (This one has no canadian markings on it)





Bren and Bren Mk IIM

 
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the biggest thing I can remember for differences is the switch from the drum sight on the mk1 and few other thing to make manufacture simpler on the mk2, and the mk3 had a shorter barrel. the on marked with 7.92 was a caliber reversion for bren made in Canada for a Chinese requirement.
 
I can point out a dozen or so differences between a Bren Mk.I and Mk.IM but what are the differences between a M.II and a Mk.IIM?
 
bogusiii... that is a very good question. If I can find some extra time, I will take the Mk II and Mk IIM and will strip them together on the same table and will take pictures of it. I can't see the difference but I can't spent an hour or two just playing with them.

Martin
 
dauph197 said:
bogusiii... that is a very good question. If I can find some extra time, I will take the Mk II and Mk IIM and will strip them together on the same table and will take pictures of it. I can't see the difference but I can't spent an hour or two just playing with them.

Martin
Click to expand...


Thanks, that would be great. The rivet and dimple above "INGLIS 1945" aren't on a Mk.II. I wonder if that's part of it (and what are they for anyway?).


 
MkII M was converted from 303 to 7.92x57mm, As opposed to being manufactured originally in 7.92x57mm looks like. we supplied loads of these to China in WWII.
 
My guess is that the Mk2M will be an early conversion of a gun over to 7.62 (or maybe oven an experimental for the .280 cartridge). The dimple and the welds will be for a spacer and ejector block to allow for the shorter magazine and cartridge. But that is just my guess.

I thought I had the whole collection of Brens, with my mk1, mk1M, mk1M interim, mk2 and 7.92CH. Now you have to go and show a mk2M. The serial number is not the normal Inglis type serial though.

Are the numbers on the sides of the gun accession numbers for a museum? Or are these in a private collection. If a museum, what museum is it and is the weapons collection open to the public?
 
stencollector said:
My guess is that the Mk2M will be an early conversion of a gun over to 7.62 (or maybe oven an experimental for the .280 cartridge). The dimple and the welds will be for a spacer and ejector block to allow for the shorter magazine and cartridge. But that is just my guess.

I thought I had the whole collection of Brens, with my mk1, mk1M, mk1M interim, mk2 and 7.92CH. Now you have to go and show a mk2M. The serial number is not the normal Inglis type serial though.

Are the numbers on the sides of the gun accession numbers for a museum? Or are these in a private collection. If a museum, what museum is it and is the weapons collection open to the public?
Click to expand...

there is a 7.92 stamp in one of the mk2m pics.

what did the 8mm versions use for mags?
 
scott585 said:
there is a 7.92 stamp in one of the mk2m pics.

what did the 8mm versions use for mags?
Click to expand...

The 8mm variations used the identical mags to the original ZB guns. I would not get too hung up on the 7.92 stamp. The 7.92 breechblock was the right block to use for the rimless cartridges, so was used on the subsequent conversions to 7.62 etc. So the fact that they used a 7.92 gun for the conversion is not surprising. I have heard reports that there were literally stacks of these guns surplus after the war hanging around at either Inglis, CAL, or the depot. The gun may be one of the so-called "resistance brens" which had minimal markings.

A photo of the inside of the magwell will likely show the spacers used for shorter mags and cartridge. Note that the British L7s used an ejector block which was fastened into the similar areas as this gun.

Perhaps trying a FN mag may answer the question about what caliber the gun was meant for. The style of serial on it (0-0662) kind of rings a bell as a CAL serial, but I would have to hit the books to find it.

Paging Warren (Wheaty). What do you know about this gun?
 
The MkIIM is dated 1945, the 7.92mm BREN MkI was well into production in 1944 so I wonder if it isn't chambered in 7.92Kurtz ?

or the 8mm "ideal cartridge" that was used in the trial leading up to the development of the .270, .280 and .280/30 "pre-nato" cartridges.

With the additions to the magwell I think its a real possibility. Converting a .303 Bren to 8mm requires opening the magwell at the front, rather than adding feedlips.

looking in dugalby (p256) the 280 bren retained in the pattern room was only caliber marked on the left side of the receiver with paint or grease marker.

The 7.62 T65 bren (p276) is marked with grease or paint as well.

Neither gun show external supports for feed lips or magazines.

The "lightweight 7.62 Bren" (P277) shows rivets holding the mag well adaptors in for the redesigned mag and ejector. Pattern looks a little different, but it would be nice to see the whole side view and top and bottom views of the museum gun.


From the photo's in Dugelby, I would suspect that quite possibly it is a 270-280-280/30-7.62 trials gun which had the caliber conversion information non-permanently marked on the side, which was removed by someone who did not understand the significants of the markings
 
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Ok then... you are putting too much pression on me, I can't old it any longer... let's prepare for a nice comparison. I'm on my lunch time after and I have few pounds over, it won't hurt me so much!! Give me some time to get the weapons and the set up the table!

Martin
 
Comparison between Bren 7.92, Mk II and Mk IIM

Hi guys,

I did it fast and I do not know if you will see much details on the pictures. It is not bad using an iPhone but there is some limits too.

Let's begin with the family pictures. The two Bren next to the wall are both Bren 7.92. As you can see, the one with the red spot has its mag lock missing, so I decided to remove it from the other pictures.

With these pictures, we can already see some details. The rivet on the Mk IIM and also the butt is different from all the others.















Now, the broken has been removed. Here there is a picture with the three remaining barrels. However, the picture cannot be considered as relevant because the serial numbers of the barrels do not fit with the MG. Only one fits with the MG and this is the one at the right that fits with the Mk IIM. So, the Mk IIM is in 7.92 mm. Also, the barrel in the middle shows a notch that I never seen on the other barrels.







On the next pictures, I tried to show you the difference from the inside. There is a difference between the three MG.

Bren 7.92



Mk II



Mk IIM (we can see the rivets)



Then all together.















I'm a little bit disappointed about the lack of regularity in the manner to store the weapons. Some have their bolts with the firing pin removed and some have the entire bolt removed. So here, we can't compare with the Bren 7.92 bolt because it is missing.











Here there is a slight difference. The one to the left is the Bren 7.92.







That's it... Hope it can help you find the difference? I'm not sure if I would be able to do it with any references.

Martin
 
Hey Dauph, first thing is thanks for some GREAT posts and pictures, very, very well done. Second thing is judging by your interest and obvious enthusiasm in caring for your museums firearms I feel they are in good hands and well looked after. Keep up the good work and posts.
 
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