(edited title) Museum's inventory: Bren Mk I, Mk II and Mk IIM.

To be honest guys, I would love to post these pictures on another forum but I will be completely overwhelmed. I'm a little bit too busy and won't be able to follow everything. Is any of you want to "steal" the post, feel free to do it, I'm not the one who tries to get any exclusivity on my posts. I post pictures because I think it's the best way to share knowledge and pleased some fellow collectors and curious people. So, I would say, I choose my place and CGN will be the place where I will concentrate my posts.

Finally, if you want to share the pictures with others, please, do it. As I already mentioned, in group we know everything. Share the knowledge and use it wisely.

Martin
 
dauph197 said:
To be honest guys, I would love to post these pictures on another forum but I will be completely overwhelmed. I'm a little bit too busy and won't be able to follow everything. Is any of you want to "steal" the post, feel free to do it, I'm not the one who tries to get any exclusivity on my posts. I post pictures because I think it's the best way to share knowledge and pleased some fellow collectors and curious people. So, I would say, I choose my place and CGN will be the place where I will concentrate my posts.

Finally, if you want to share the pictures with others, please, do it. As I already mentioned, in group we know everything. Share the knowledge and use it wisely.

Martin
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http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=49699&p=306153#post306153
 
Just a question as you work at a museum, but do they not have a archive or reference liberary? If not maybe you should ask if its possible to make some purchases of Collector Grade books to develope a knowledge base to draw from. No offence, its great the detailed pictures but it looks like your museum has great little petting zoo of historic firearms and no real idea what it actually has on its hands.
 
XRCD011 said:
Just a question as you work at a museum, but do they not have a archive or reference liberary? If not maybe you should ask if its possible to make some purchases of Collector Grade books to develope a knowledge base to draw from. No offence, its great the detailed pictures but it looks like your museum has great little petting zoo of historic firearms and no real idea what it actually has on its hands.
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this is the norm for Canadian museums.
 
I would say this is the norm for the vast majority of the Museums and, at some point, event if it's hard to admit, it is some kind of normal.

I explain my last sentence. The people who work in Museums are mostly civilians. These persons are not necessarily attract to weapons studies. They get a job where they can get a job. Also, Museums are always low in personnel because of a lack of budget. So running a Museum, from the exterior may look like easy but I confirm it is a total nightmare. As they are supposed to be a place of scientific references and guardian of the Heritage, we are often rude in criticisms after a visit but believe me, lots of people working in a Museum have no clue of what they are using in exhibition. This mean, you can find people interested in modern art working in a military museum... they build their knowledge very slowly and sometimes with constructive criticisms because someone can take the time to explain that something in the exhibition does not fit or is badly shown. Also, you have to add each worker's personality. Some are avid of knowledge and will take each and every opportunity to learn and some will totally ignore any advice coming from outside the Museum's community. We all know both of this type of persons. Then, the time! Time is something that does not appear to exist in a Museum. Everything has to be done for yesterday with low personnel. What do you think this will imply? Some errors, lack of information or simply misinformation. 97% of the time, this is not with bad intention... in Museums, people are doing what they can, not necessarily what they want. The Museum has an impressive library but with very few people interested in the reading and a complete lack of time to do it.

Now, why do I post pictures and ask questions like I'm doing? I am in the military since the last 18 years. I have a certain interest in weapons and I love reading books, especially books in which you learn something, if you know what I mean? So, I built a certain general knowledge about military history. I had the chance to choose my job for this summer, that's the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. I was involved in a quick inventory and made some discovery. I also find out that people were not completely aware of what was in the collection. I told the Museum's authorities that I would be willing to conduct a detailed inventory. Because I am not counted in the Museum's personnel, they have accepted and now this decision is paying off.

So, you know the whole story behind my numerous postings and believe me, it is like this in all the museums, except those few private museums, where they usually have curators and private researchers. There is a lot of treasures sleeping in Museum's reserves but very few people allowed to find them.

Martin
 
If the barrel for the Mk2M is serialised to the gun, perhaps try some different dummy cartridges to see what the gun is chambered for. You could also look down the bore to see if it truly is 8mm, or much smaller. If the barrel has been sleeved, then that may be visible inside the cone at the muzzle.

Inquiring minds want to know.
 
dauph197 said:
I would say this is the norm for the vast majority of the Museums and, at some point, event if it's hard to admit, it is some kind of normal.

I explain my last sentence. The people who work in Museums are mostly civilians. These persons are not necessarily attract to weapons studies. They get a job where they can get a job. Also, Museums are always low in personnel because of a lack of budget. So running a Museum, from the exterior may look like easy but I confirm it is a total nightmare. As they are supposed to be a place of scientific references and guardian of the Heritage, we are often rude in criticisms after a visit but believe me, lots of people working in a Museum have no clue of what they are using in exhibition. This mean, you can find people interested in modern art working in a military museum... they build their knowledge very slowly and sometimes with constructive criticisms because someone can take the time to explain that something in the exhibition does not fit or is badly shown. Also, you have to add each worker's personality. Some are avid of knowledge and will take each and every opportunity to learn and some will totally ignore any advice coming from outside the Museum's community. We all know both of this type of persons. Then, the time! Time is something that does not appear to exist in a Museum. Everything has to be done for yesterday with low personnel. What do you think this will imply? Some errors, lack of information or simply misinformation. 97% of the time, this is not with bad intention... in Museums, people are doing what they can, not necessarily what they want. The Museum has an impressive library but with very few people interested in the reading and a complete lack of time to do it.

Now, why do I post pictures and ask questions like I'm doing? I am in the military since the last 18 years. I have a certain interest in weapons and I love reading books, especially books in which you learn something, if you know what I mean? So, I built a certain general knowledge about military history. I had the chance to choose my job for this summer, that's the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. I was involved in a quick inventory and made some discovery. I also find out that people were not completely aware of what was in the collection. I told the Museum's authorities that I would be willing to conduct a detailed inventory. Because I am not counted in the Museum's personnel, they have accepted and now this decision is paying off.

So, you know the whole story behind my numerous postings and believe me, it is like this in all the museums, except those few private museums, where they usually have curators and private researchers. There is a lot of treasures sleeping in Museum's reserves but very few people allowed to find them.

Martin
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Keep up good work Martin, don't be discouraged by nay sayers. I really appreciate pics you post and good reading.
 
dauph197 said:
Finally, just because we all love it, here some more pictures...









































































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Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!! A box full of unpinned BREN mags...It was like looking into the fiery gates of Hell.

I remember kicking these Baby killers aside when going through old Surplus stores.

Where did it all go so wrong:(
 
Thought I'd chime in here on the Brens. The 7.92 Bren was not a conversion as most thought but an actual re-design of the .303. There was also a later run of the 7.92 Bren for the US government and we seem to think those later went to Tibet compliments of the CIA during the Chinese incursion into Tibet. Also, the so called Resistance 7.92 Brens which I first thought as back door Brens were a specific production run however little info is known about them. I am in the process right now of examining records and guns in both Canada and overseas and hope to have some solid info on to their parentage shortly. The most enigmatic of all the Brens was the 280 Bren and the Canadian 30-06 Bren. Not much has survived on either but I do have a few pictures of the remaining items.
Also included for your viewing is the original grand daddy of the Bren's..a ZB 26 (bottom one) and the first model of the .303 Bren, the ZGB 33/34 (top one). We suspect this MIGHT be the South African sample as the serial number is consecutive with the ones in the old Pattern Room (all please bow at the mere mention of the name).
Now lets see if the photo's will work.
The last photo is a test to see how many of the more exotic Bren mags you can ID.

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I'll ask KevG to take a look at the Bren with the rivets on the side. They do limit the mag size and I suspect they are for the 280/7mm HV trials Bren.
If you want info on anything other than the run of the mill Bren's, KevG is the man. If anyone wants to get in touch with him, PM me.
 
Long time lurker so hope you don't mind me butting in on this thread as it looks to be rather unusual and interesting !
Thank you to the OP dauph197 for sharing the pictures,much appreciated ........ but at the same time I have a blinding headache from reading 30-06,7.92mm,7mmHV,.280,.30/7.62 calibre conversion trials reports for the last few days.Of course the trials reports are the only ones that I know of and this wouldn't include any guns the Canadians didn't submit for trial in the UK.Needless to say nothing with this serial number is listed or is described or pictured similar in photographs in reports.

Without a round being presented to the chamber or a magazine offered into the mag well to narrow down calibre options a few questions and observations.

Usually on shorter round such as in the modified Bren to take 7.62x39 with an AK magazine



a safety bent further back can be found



Is anything like this present in the MKIIM ?

Also as has been mentioned 'usually' in a shorter round not utilising an adapted 'parent' calibre magazine but a new made specific magazine an ejector block adaptor is needed to make up the size difference such as on the Canadian .280 conversion.





This feature doesn't seem to be present ?

Is the ejector or extractor marked 7.92 ?

Although the serial number 0-0562 is similar in format to 'sterile' Brens it is located differently and all other 'know' guns are in the 1-###x to 2-###x range ,nothing apart from lack of inspection and proof marks points to this.The retaining pin locating the piston/piston extention (if original to the gun) is in the wrong place and the fire selection on 'sterile' guns should read 20-0-1 not A-S-R
The serial number is another mystery in itself.

The question raised by L.E. is interesting regarding 7.92Kurtz as the only UK design work on this (AFAIK) was done soon after the war with an adaptable type gun design for a rifle/SMG utilising a roller locking bolt.The drawings give it the designation EM3 (but date wise is before the EM2 rifle) but ??? if any prototype/s were ever made.
Not sure if anything experimental was done in Canada with this round ?
The 7.92Kurtz round used on a Bren would also have probably had to use an ejector block though ?

Also mention by L.E. - "The "lightweight 7.62 Bren" (P277) shows rivets holding the mag well adaptors in for the redesigned mag and ejector. Pattern looks a little different, but it would be nice to see the whole side view and top and bottom views of the museum gun."





The 7.62 NATO XP113 Canadian converted guns (S/N's 5&6) and as L.E. says have a similar design to them but also utilise an ejector block which as mentioned isn't present on BREN MKIIM.


What do the numbers ? read on the mag catch ?



Is there any chance of taking another photo of the magazine well with the cover pushed further forward to see if the extra machining is for the internal insert or some other reason ?



Although Canadian 7.92mm production was well underway in 45 (as indicated on the reciever) the magazine well walls to the rear seem to be thinner .303 ones (unless these too have been machined ?) so maybe as gaff has said "MkII M was converted from 303 to 7.92x57mm...." and this was another way by means of a .303 conversion of getting a 7.92mm Bren instead of manufacturing one from new ?

Sorry for rambling on a bit ;) but would very much like to know more about this myself.
Hope this thread goes on long enough to find an answer.

All errors,typos and bad spelling are my own.
All the best Kevin

P.S. sorry Warren your hat went in the bin ! :)
 
I'll try to do my best to take more pictures of it. Hope I'll be able to do it next week as time is passing by and I will have to focus on something else very soon. However, like I already mentioned, I want to do the maximum efforts to thoroughly identify and document each and every single weapon the museum has.

muleskinner: I will try to use this very interesting post to take more pictures but if you would agree to send me in PM what exactly you would like to see from the MkIIM MG, I'll be more than happy to proceed with a check list.

Finally, if anyone wants special pictures of special part of the MGs, feel free to let me know in PM. I'll be easier for me to proceed with different PMs than scrolling up and down from the thread.

Keep posting interesting info on this thread, this is why I'm writing them.

Martin
 
gaff said:
this is the norm for Canadian museums.
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Indeed, I was in a small military museum in Kensington , PEI, last week, the young guy watching the collection told me all about about the "clips" for the M1 Garand, how the Germans loved them because when they heard the "Ping" they knew the Americans were out of ammo and they could counterattack. Only problem, the "clips" were a pair of 5 .303 British bullets in charger clips. I explained the difference and even showed him the other display case with a No 5 Mk 1 and it's charger clip of 5 on display. I also pointed out that the P37 web belt, with a No 4 spike bayonet, was WW2 and was in the display of WW1 items. Sadly, their Bren was literally sitting on the floor in a corner, with a light blue United Nations flag obscuring it from view. The muzzle was sticking out nd I bumped my shin on it as I walked past. Small museum, had a lot of stuff jammed into it though.
 
Vinver, yes, this situation happen very often. As I already said, when you see these anacronisms, try to bring the problem with some historical reference. At this point, you'll see if the museum's personel is open minded or not. They have to understand that they can't know everything... Not because they are not good at their job but only because it is impossible to know everything.
 
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