educate me, "1860 Snider-Enfield"

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Ran into what I think is a decent condition enfield rifle in .57 snider. It had "1860 Enfield" stamped on the side and like I mentioned was chambered in what I guess is .577 snider. Seems complete to me other then I think the rear sight is missing the sliding part. Bore is a smooth bore and was slightly rusted with a little pitting, but is far from being a sewer pipe. Stock is also in fairly decent shape other then some gouges in the fore end from what Im guessing is someone using a very hard shooting rest. It definitely caught my eye.

EDIT: I just went down and had another look at it. It has "II" and two stars on the top, ahead of the breach. It does in fact have rifling, its faint but I could feel it with my finger at the crown, Im guessing the rust just was hiding it. it does have full wood, and has the ram rod as well. I am not too sure, but the firing pin looks bent, and looks like the part that would screw in (where the hammer would hit) and keep the fireing pin in place has broken off. Rifle has all three bands, but no sling swivels.

Only problem is I don't know much about these old BP rifles.

So, tell me everything I need to know to identify these rifles, and what too look for before buying.

Also, what would be a reasonable price to pay for a moderate condition one?

Also, I understand Kypher pass copies of rifles from this era are very common. What would one look for when trying to authenticate one of these?

Thanks.
 
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1860 enfield

greetings-from the description it sounds like a series 2 Snider Enfield in .577 cal. i would hazard a guess at value around 325- without seeing pictures but noting the defects you have found. parts are available for these-firing pins etc. so it's not a real problem to get these old fellas working. rifling was not very deep originally and yours may turn out o.k. afterall. try to post a picture or two to help in valuation. cheers
 
Snider-Enfield Mark II**.

The barrel has 3 grooves, not awfully deep and quite wide. Barrel length is 39 inches and the twist rate is 1 turn in 78 inches, so the bullet makes half a turn (Right) going down the tube. Grooves are .005 at the breech, .012 at the muzzle, bore diameter is .577". The bullet diameter was .573" with a very thin Minie-type skirt which did not always obturate very well; you can get much better accuracy with a .584" diameter slug. Powder charge was 70 grains of RFG No. 2 (BLACK powder; FFg is closest), bullet weight was 480 grains but it was very long from the boxwood plugs in nose and base: efforts to rebalance the bullet. There were 9 different Marks of this ammunition prior to 1869, all because they were trying to use muzzleloader solutions to a breechloader problem. Today, we would just use an oversize bullet and have fun accurately. The barrels on these were just soft brown IRON and "only" would last (by actual test) about 130,000 rounds; the STEEL barrel adopted in 1867 and made through to 1872 was a considerable improvement. STEEL barrels were used only on the Mark III and are (quite) prominently marked: they were very proud of having STEEL rifle barrels at a time when everyone else had IRON.

The "Enfield" is the place of original manufacture, the "1860" is the year it was built as a muzzleloader. These were converted in 1866 and 1867 to the configuration you have in your hands. When the supply of ML rifles was exhausted, they started to make all-new rifles with an improved breech-locking mechanism and STEEL barrels; this was properly termed the SNIDER RIFLE Mark III, the appellation "Snider-Enfield" being reserved for rifles converted from Enfield rifled-muskets by the Snider System.

Jacob Snider was a Dutch-American Jewish wine merchant who fielded this design into the British trials of 1866. The Snider system was quick and cheap to make and the rifles were out of service only a few days and back in the line for about 5 shillings and the altered rifles could put out MUCH more fire: the Snider rifle could be fired at a rate of 18 rounds per minute, by actual test. I equalled this rate of fire with my own Snider, almost exactly a century later, so I know that it can be done. Yeah, they were the "AK-47" of their day!

The Snider conversion unit was in 2 main parts, the SHOE (which today would be called a "receiver") and the BLOCK. In the early models (I, I*, II, II*, II**) the Block was held in its "closed" position by a small spring-powered STUD projecting forward and into the rear of the Block, from the rear of the Shoe. Most of the time today, this Lock does not work. You can get at it to repair it by removing the Barrel Assembly and then soaking loose the Screw in the Shoe, disassembling and repairing/replacing the Spring and possibly the Stud. This is a weak lock at best, but it is what they had. The later Mark III had a MUCH-improved Lock with a heavy Bolt contained in the Block: geometry reversed from the original pattern.

Your broken part is the NIPPLE, which was the original iron Nipple with a hole drilled through the centre to permit passage of the Firing Pin. After the rifles passed out of the military, they were sold off dirt-cheap and used by anyone and everyone..... who promptly lost the Nipple Protectors and didn't know that dry-firing the thing would wreck the Nipples, first chipping them and then mashing them flat. Solution is to replace the Nipple. They unscrew easily, but you might need penetrating oil the first time. Then beg, borrow, steal, purchase or otherwise acquire a proper Nipple Protector with its appropriate Chain to connect it to the Triggerguard Swivel. If you can't find an original Snider Nipple, you can start with a Nipple for an Enfield Pattern 1853 or 1858 and have it drilled out.

SERIALS were on the underside of the Barrel and generally are 4 figures only; this Number was supposed to be repeated on the underside of the Breechblock but you will find many with replaced, unnumbered Blocks. CHECK the Shoe and the Block for writing as well as for Proof Marks. MANY of these conversions were done by BSA: their very FIRST job as a Company. Four years later, they got one of the first contracts to build the replacement for the Snider, the Martini-Henry, and from then onwards until the end of motorcycle production and then gun production used piled Martinis as their Trade Mark.

To authenticate it as original British manufacture, just take off the Lock; one quick look will tell you. These were entirely machine-made and they are BEAUTIFUL: absolute Works of ART. Check the Butt of the rifle also for "DC" in a diamond: Canadian ownership or use mark. Also check the right side of the Butt for an Enfield Stock Cartouche. There should be well-stamped Broad Arrows just about everywhere. AFAIK, the Pathan guys never did copy the DC-in-a-diamond mark. Another mark from the same period would be the MD mark: Militia and Defence. Regimentally-marked rifles also exist: check the Buttplate and the Butt.

You can make AMMUNITION from 24-gauge brass shotgun shells, slightly necked (the Snider bore itself is a 25-gauge) and trimmed, with a .030"-thick INSERT made of coiled and glued PAPER and filling from the base of the Bullet at the bottom of the Neck, to the Base of the casing. This will prevent loading too much powder and assure consistent ignition by constricting the powder charge and assuring just enough compression for best shooting.

You have a WONDERFUL Toy, Sir!

The Snider was the VERY FIRST breechloading rifle using Central-fire ammunition to be adopted by a major Army. Sniders armed the WORLD in the early 1870s and they are an absolute BALL of fun to shoot with today. Go to the range with a set of binoculars and stand behind your buddy as he takes a couple of shots: you can WATCH THE BULLET! Serious!

Hope this helps.
.
"A Snider squibbed in the jungle;
Somebody laughed and fled
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead
With a big blue mark on his forehead
And the back blown out of his head." ....................... Kipling, of course, "Grave of the Hundred Dead".
.
 
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So, What are the chances of getting a Kypher pass copy?

I did a google search, but most turned up results for Martini-henry and Martini-enfield rifles and such.

After doing some searching about prices I am quite tempted to pick this up. But only if its not a copy.
 
I have never seen a Khyber Pass (Pathan) Snider, although I have seen a lot of Martinis from there, including .303 and .577/.450 PISTOLS on Martini actions. On the ones which were being made 'way back then, there was always something wrong with the markings, even if the gun were otherwise okay: sideways "S"s, "Einfled" for "Enfield", screwy dates such as 1906 with a VR (Queen Victoria was 5 years dead already). They thought that the "VR" mark with the Crown was a symbol of quality, so they stamped it on everything. They didn't know that it signified British Government ownership in the reign of Queen Victoria, so they used it long after the dear Queen was gone. It was as if some madman were turning out AKs and stamping them all with WaA Eagles!

The original rifles were Proofed very well for the period. Stick to original loads as Max, make sure that pitting doesn't go TOO terribly deep..... and have fun. Pressures were very low with these rifles and the old brown-iron barrels could handle it very well. Note that the barrels on these were NOT lap-welded but bored from solid. Likely they were the safest barrels in the world for their time.

Fire one of these in good light, the World turns dark as that HUGE cloud of blue-white smoke envelopes you, then drifts away. Fire one at Dusk.... and it's like watching the Sun rise for an instant!

TBSA - 1909 gives the MV as 1240 ft/sec with the standard 480-gain slug. This works out to almost exactly the power of a .30-30 although it is delivered entirely differently.

If anyone is worried about the Zombie Apocalypse, get a Snider! Just point the thing at the Zombies and they will surrender quietly. They are also good for clearing unwanted Douglas Firs, old car bodies, medium-size Tanks and other impedimenta from your back yard; one round usually moves the offending object onto someone else's property, whence it is THEIR headache! Velociraptors quake at the sight of a Snider and foul their cages in utter dismay! As a Gopher gun, there is no substitute: the bullet strikes the ground and digs a huge hole, the Gopher goes over to investigate, falls in and breaks his own neck: rodent clearance without blood guilt!

Sniders are VERY useful.

They are also just BEAUTIFUL on your rack.

And they are the Turning-point, the Beginning: they are the FIRST centre-fire breechloading Rifle to be adopted by a Power. EVERY gun collection needs a Snider, if only to show where it all STARTED. ALL of the Mark I, I*, II, II* and II** rifles are CONVERSIONS from muzzle-loaders and the Mark III was the first STEEL-barreled military centrefire rifle made as a new rifle. There is NOTHING more historically significant in our hobby.

They are relatively common in Canada because so many were dumped here when they went out of Service. Their last combat use was in Canada in the 1885 Rebellion, by which time they already had been out of production for 13 or 14 years. By 1900 the Army already was unloading their stocks, although a few were kept for Cadet use as late as 1926. Bubba bought them for 75 cents to a dollar apiece...... and has been "improving" them ever since..... which is why good ORIGINALS are so scarce.

A good Snider is like a faithful old dog; it will NEVER let you down when you really NEED it.

Yeah, Sniders are okay. Really okay.
.
 
Well,
Just went down and picked it up. I can't wait to start working on it.

I took some pics, but unfortunately I can't find the cable to my camera so pics are gonna have to wait.
 
I once owned a Khyber Pass Snider; it was identical in every respect to a british one except for no name on the lock and the rear sight markings were in farsi or some sort of squiggles. Also of course there was no british proof marks

The quickest way to tell a non british Snider or gun of any kind is to check the barrel for proof marks. Familiarize yourself with the basic british proof marks and check the breach end of the barrel on the left side

cheers mooncoon
 
Hmm,
I just spent a few hours cleaning it up and i'm not amused. I know the bore was rusty, but I had no clue how bad it was. When I looked at it at the shop, it just looked like some fuzzt rust, and I could see and feel the rifeling at the muzzle. But after getting it home and haveing a good look, its starting to make be a little upset. Their is still faint rifling, but it is pretty pitted. I ran a 20g bore brush through a few times, flushing with hot hot soapy water patch, and that cleaned it up enough to see the rifling, but I am not as excited as I was when I picked it up.

Is their any way to smooth out the bore without removing too much material? Patches are still comeing out brown, and I just got tired of it for now.

Their seems to still be a fair amount of rust in the bore. How would I go about removing it to get a true appraisal of the condition? Should I just keep useing the bore brush or will it damage whats left of the rifeling?

Thanks.
 
@mooncoon:

Really good idea is to make up a chart with different systems of numbers on them, even the ones you don't think you will run across.

A number of years ago, I swapped a Voere 7mmRM, really nice rifle but I am just not into modern stuff, even the really accurate ones (as this was). Swapped it for 2 beat-up old Martinis and a "Pakistani" Snider. Only problem was that the numbers on the sight were wrong and there was a chamber marking which was NOT Farsi. Studied up on it and it turned out it was Nepalese. It was also very damned close to brand-new.

So for the last 20 years I have been sitting on likely the BEST Nepalese Snider in the country..... and all because I found out what the numbers were. The chamber marking turned out to be Khatmandu Arsenal, s/n is fantastically low, too: 151.

Believe me, I a NOT complaining!
.
 
There has been a whole load of stuff come to North America from Nepal in the last few years.

You might try electrolytic bore cleaning. You cork the bore with a steel rod centrally supported through the bore, fill with an ammonia solution, and pass low voltage dc through. IIRC correctly, the rod is -ve, the barrel +ve. Won't remove barrel material, but will remove crud on the surface. Twenty minutes cycles. Do a google search. Won't make the bore shiney, but will make it clean. You will not believe the crap that will be removed.
 
Excellent posting by "smellie" and others.

You may want to take a trip over to;

h ttp://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/forums/2/Snider-Enfield-Forum

Sniders and Martini Henry's can be very addictive.
 
snider-enfield

for removing rust especially in the bore and at the breech-plug i use a product sold by good ol' Canada Tire called Evapo-Rust. use it just as the instructions say and it works wonders. be sure to keep it off the original exterior finish as it removes that as well . i would wash the barrel with lacquer thinner before starting. hope it works out well as it's a worthwhile project. cheers, bill
 
I have used plain old white vineger with good success.
Cork in the muzzle fill ithe barrel to the chamber and let sit overnight. Scrub and patch clean. I use only Windex to scrub and Bore butter to patch clean on my Sniders,
I have noticed vineger does not work nearly as well on modern high quality steel barrels.
Dave
 
That was awesome Smellie!

Snider-Enfield Mark II**.

The barrel has 3 grooves, not awfully deep and quite wide. Barrel length is 39 inches and the twist rate is 1 turn in 78 inches, so the bullet makes half a turn (Right) going down the tube. Grooves are .005 at the breech, .012 at the muzzle, bore diameter is .577". The bullet diameter was .573" with a very thin Minie-type skirt which did not always obturate very well; you can get much better accuracy with a .584" diameter slug. Powder charge was 70 grains of RFG No. 2 (BLACK powder; FFg is closest), bullet weight was 480 grains but it was very long from the boxwood plugs in nose and base: efforts to rebalance the bullet. There were 9 different Marks of this ammunition prior to 1869, all because they were trying to use muzzleloader solutions to a breechloader problem. Today, we would just use an oversize bullet and have fun accurately. The barrels on these were just soft brown IRON and "only" would last (by actual test) about 130,000 rounds; the STEEL barrel adopted in 1867 and made through to 1872 was a considerable improvement. STEEL barrels were used only on the Mark III and are (quite) prominently marked: they were very proud of having STEEL rifle barrels at a time when everyone else had IRON.

The "Enfield" is the place of original manufacture, the "1860" is the year it was built as a muzzleloader. These were converted in 1866 and 1867 to the configuration you have in your hands. When the supply of ML rifles was exhausted, they started to make all-new rifles with an improved breech-locking mechanism and STEEL barrels; this was properly termed the SNIDER RIFLE Mark III, the appellation "Snider-Enfield" being reserved for rifles converted from Enfield rifled-muskets by the Snider System.

Jacob Snider was a Dutch-American Jewish wine merchant who fielded this design into the British trials of 1866. The Snider system was quick and cheap to make and the rifles were out of service only a few days and back in the line for about 5 shillings and the altered rifles could put out MUCH more fire: the Snider rifle could be fired at a rate of 18 rounds per minute, by actual test. I equalled this rate of fire with my own Snider, almost exactly a century later, so I know that it can be done. Yeah, they were the "AK-47" of their day!

The Snider conversion unit was in 2 main parts, the SHOE (which today would be called a "receiver") and the BLOCK. In the early models (I, I*, II, II*, II**) the Block was held in its "closed" position by a small spring-powered STUD projecting forward and into the rear of the Block, from the rear of the Shoe. Most of the time today, this Lock does not work. You can get at it to repair it by removing the Barrel Assembly and then soaking loose the Screw in the Shoe, disassembling and repairing/replacing the Spring and possibly the Stud. This is a weak lock at best, but it is what they had. The later Mark III had a MUCH-improved Lock with a heavy Bolt contained in the Block: geometry reversed from the original pattern.

Your broken part is the NIPPLE, which was the original iron Nipple with a hole drilled through the centre to permit passage of the Firing Pin. After the rifles passed out of the military, they were sold off dirt-cheap and used by anyone and everyone..... who promptly lost the Nipple Protectors and didn't know that dry-firing the thing would wreck the Nipples, first chipping them and then mashing them flat. Solution is to replace the Nipple. They unscrew easily, but you might need penetrating oil the first time. Then beg, borrow, steal, purchase or otherwise acquire a proper Nipple Protector with its appropriate Chain to connect it to the Triggerguard Swivel. If you can't find an original Snider Nipple, you can start with a Nipple for an Enfield Pattern 1853 or 1858 and have it drilled out.

SERIALS were on the underside of the Barrel and generally are 4 figures only; this Number was supposed to be repeated on the underside of the Breechblock but you will find many with replaced, unnumbered Blocks. CHECK the Shoe and the Block for writing as well as for Proof Marks. MANY of these conversions were done by BSA: their very FIRST job as a Company. Four years later, they got one of the first contracts to build the replacement for the Snider, the Martini-Henry, and from then onwards until the end of motorcycle production and then gun production used piled Martinis as their Trade Mark.

To authenticate it as original British manufacture, just take off the Lock; one quick look will tell you. These were entirely machine-made and they are BEAUTIFUL: absolute Works of ART. Check the Butt of the rifle also for "DC" in a diamond: Canadian ownership or use mark. Also check the right side of the Butt for an Enfield Stock Cartouche. There should be well-stamped Broad Arrows just about everywhere. AFAIK, the Pathan guys never did copy the DC-in-a-diamond mark. Another mark from the same period would be the MD mark: Militia and Defence. Regimentally-marked rifles also exist: check the Buttplate and the Butt.

You can make AMMUNITION from 24-gauge brass shotgun shells, slightly necked (the Snider bore itself is a 25-gauge) and trimmed, with a .030"-thick INSERT made of coiled and glued PAPER and filling from the base of the Bullet at the bottom of the Neck, to the Base of the casing. This will prevent loading too much powder and assure consistent ignition by constricting the powder charge and assuring just enough compression for best shooting.

You have a WONDERFUL Toy, Sir!

The Snider was the VERY FIRST breechloading rifle using Central-fire ammunition to be adopted by a major Army. Sniders armed the WORLD in the early 1870s and they are an absolute BALL of fun to shoot with today. Go to the range with a set of binoculars and stand behind your buddy as he takes a couple of shots: you can WATCH THE BULLET! Serious!

Hope this helps.
.
"A Snider squibbed in the jungle;
Somebody laughed and fled
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead
With a big blue mark on his forehead
And the back blown out of his head." ....................... Kipling, of course, "Grave of the Hundred Dead".
.
 
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