EESA Movember Charity Match

supermariov said:
For whats its worth, here goes my spout on East Elgins match being downgraded to a Level 1.. People like Storm who take the time and effort to put on really great matches should not be penalized by someone who does little or nothing to further the sport of practical pistol shooting.
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Hey supermariov... care to clarify for me who this "someone" is that does little or nothing to further the sport of practical pistol shooting that you are referring to???
 
euxx said:
I still have no idea why you are making such a f***g big deal out of submitting stage diagrams for sanctioning.
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Ah my young grasshopper.......you have much to learn.

It is actually a double sided mirror..

Is I I who am making a big deal out of submitting stage diagrams? Or........is it IPSC Ontario?

There in lies the rub........

The IPSC rules indicate that Sanctioning of L2 matches is OPTIONAL...

Optional as in it need not be done.

As in the sections are FREE to do it or not.

It would also follow that there exists no methodology in concrete for such sanctioning. So a simple wave of a magic wand or sacrifce of a groundhog or similar would be sufficient.

See for someone to exercise power they should show good and compelling reason why it should be done.

This plainly has not been the case.
Answers like it is our policy do not fly.......you see my policy is to not conform with policies that are not logical.

Since we have an obvious clash of policy it is then only logical that I work as best I can.

To me that is Level 1 matches.

See it is as easy as pie.
 
Quigley said:
Oh please...

You guys are starting to sound like those f**king hippies living in tents in the park yelling "Stick it to the man"
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That is not a fair comparison at all.......

The people in tents are parasites on society. 7.62 and myself like to think we are contributing members of the IPSC Ontario Society in terms of hosting matches etc.

If you think contrary I would welcome your evidence.
 
7.62mm said:
Control and power!
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Not everything in the big bad world out there is about control and power. Not everyone is out to stick it to you. Get over yourself.

I can understand why they (IPSC) want it, if you don't have someone making sure that the match and stages are according to IPSC rules then it ain't a IPSC match, it's that simple. They are the governing body here so if YOU want to play THEIR game you play by THEIR rules. If you don't want to play their game then don't.

Without someone in charge ppl who don't have a clue will and have done some pretty stupid sh*t! I am sure we have all seen it, I know I have in my 15+ years in this sport. Just because John and his crew know how to do it properly doesn't mean the Billy Bob at Jack's Range has a clue. The rules apply to all clubs equally.

That being said I don't know what is the root problem here at this match. It was a good match IMO and it is too bad this happened. Is it just because the stages were not sent in for approval or is there more to this?
 
SVISTI1911 said:
Not everything in the big bad world out there is about control and power. Not everyone is out to stick it to you. Get over yourself.
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Not everything is about control and power......but this does appear to be the case. Just look below. You argue for control.

oh and sometimes they REALLY are out to stick it to you. I am not saying this is the case but it does and has happen.


SVISTI1911 said:
I can understand why they (IPSC) want it, if you don't have someone making sure that the match and stages are according to IPSC rules then it ain't a IPSC match, it's that simple.
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BINGO!
Do you honestly think that shooters attending a match that does not pass muster would not mention it?

SVISTI1911 said:
They are the governing body here so if YOU want to play THEIR game you play by THEIR rules. If you don't want to play their game then don't.
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See I take a totally different perspective.........I consider it MY game and MY rules as I am a member. I know it is symantics but it is important. The rules say what they are doing in OPTIONAL (as I have pointed out) I tend to always opt for the option that involes less overbearing power over others. That does not appear to be a universal attitude.
As I have stated earlier..........I will certainly be playing by the rules from now on.


SVISTI1911 said:
Without someone in charge ppl who don't have a clue will and have done some pretty stupid sh*t! I am sure we have all seen it, I know I have in my 15+ years in this sport.
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and those people should be taken to task for it. That is logical and I am all about logic.

SVISTI1911 said:
Just because John and his crew know how to do it properly doesn't mean the Billy Bob at Jack's Range has a clue. The rules apply to all clubs equally.
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No see here is where we differ......Why should Billy Bobs ineptitude have any impact what so ever on me or my crew? If the problem is with Billy and his gang of ruffians.......I would suggest concentrating energies on them.


SVISTI1911 said:
That being said I don't know what is the root problem here at this match. It was a good match IMO and it is too bad this happened. Is it just because the stages were not sent in for approval or is there more to this?
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No the lack of stage sanction appears to be the root of the problem...........

Well that is my guess as I have yet to recieve notificatin of the reduction.
 
Actually no, the sanctioning is not optional, all matches must be sanctioned or they are not IPSC matches. The rules say that International sanctioning is not required but that The regional directorate is entitled to establish its own criteria and methods for sanctioning levelI and II matches.

Point 14: Note that " " means that international sanctioning of Level I and Level II matches is not required. However each Regional Directorate is entitled to establish their own criteria
and procedures for sanctioning of Level I and Level II matches held within their own Region.

So there is no "option" matches must be sanctioned by the local body, it is up to that group to decide how to go about it, not whether or not it will do it at all. In fact if you really want to read that accurately, we should be doing the same for level I matches, submit courses of fire for ALL matches....
 
Well that is my guess as I have yet to recieve notificatin of the reduction..
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You may want to check your inbox or junk mail, it was sent to your email address, before the results were posted, and I was copied on it.
 
We are talking the same point PH.

That ability to extablish their own criteria IS THE OPION!

For example..........they would be able to say that the MD needs to snap his fingers 3 times and jump up and down as the methodology to achieve sanction.

For what its worth I might even agree to that.


Oh for level 1 matches the requirement should be to BLINK your eyes twice.

now............if someone were to put on a match that was fraught with problems.

THEN YOU DEAL WITH THAT CLUB AND THAT MD to find a way to improve them.

My way is much less invasive.......and I like less invasive things.
 
stormbringer said:
Not everything is about control and power......but this does appear to be the case. Just look below. You argue for control.

oh and sometimes they REALLY are out to stick it to you. I am not saying this is the case but it does and has happen.

BINGO!
Do you honestly think that shooters attending a match that does not pass muster would not mention it?

See I take a totally different perspective.........I consider it MY game and MY rules as I am a member. I know it is symantics but it is important. The rules say what they are doing in OPTIONAL (as I have pointed out) I tend to always opt for the option that involes less overbearing power over others. That does not appear to be a universal attitude.
As I have stated earlier..........I will certainly be playing by the rules from now on.

and those people should be taken to task for it. That is logical and I am all about logic.

No see here is where we differ......Why should Billy Bobs ineptitude have any impact what so ever on me or my crew? If the problem is with Billy and his gang of ruffians.......I would suggest concentrating energies on them.

No the lack of stage sanction appears to be the root of the problem...........

Well that is my guess as I have yet to recieve notificatin of the reduction.
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Well until you get that notification it is all semantics until then. It could be be any number of things, where all shooters members? Current officials? I don't know. I do know that nothing was done at your match from what I saw on my squad that wasn't IPSC "legal".

I don't see it as your game or even my game, I see it as OUR game. I like it so much I am willing to share it, being able to share it with other shooters and friends is part of what makes it so enjoyable.

The problem with dealing with the yahoos is it's too late on the day of the match! How would you like to drive 3+ hours to get to a match that doesn't play by the rules and they have god knows what going on once you get there? I kind of see it as someone is in a way protecting the shooters/fellow members from this, or at least attempting too. There is only 1 of you and only 1 of me, but here are almost 1000 IPSC Ontario shooters that share this game too. They want to know ahead of time that a Lvl II IPSC match is gonna be a Lvl II IPSC Match and not a bowling pin match, or a silhouette match etc. I would be a bit worried if they were only focusing on certain clubs actually. The rules and principles apply to all the clubs equally. Who would decide what clubs would have to be watched? Who determines that? How do you get on that sh*t list? How do you get off of it? How does this become less controlling?

I don't see where in the rules they say that sanctioning is optional. Rules 1.3-1.3.3 say nothing like that at all. Appendix A1 14 says international sanctioning is not required but it does says each Regional Directorate has the authority to establish their own criteria for Lvl I and Lvl II matches.

It is too bad this happened, I guess mostly for the RO's that lost a point. Being lowered to a Lvl I did not affect the quality of the match, I don't think that anyone enjoyed the match any less today then they did when they shot it because of this. You still raised money for a worthy cause and helped with your new building project. I am sure, the match as most of us see it, was a great success. That being said I can understand why you would be upset. I think I would be too. At the very least someone from the BOD should step up and let you know why this happened.
 
stormbringer said:
Why should Billy Bobs ineptitude have any impact what so ever on me or my crew? If the problem is with Billy and his gang of ruffians.......I would suggest concentrating energies on them.
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Storm, if we follow your logic, we should stop requiring the Black Badge course and equipment check at the matches. Naturally there are people claiming to been shooting for 15 years and know the game inside out. Yet the rules are equal to everyone...

If you don't agree with the current policy, there are many ways to change it. What you are doing is not one of them.
 
SVISTI1911 said:
Well until you get that notification it is all semantics until then. It could be be any number of things, where all shooters members? Current officials? I don't know. I do know that nothing was done at your match from what I saw on my squad that wasn't IPSC "legal".
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Well I am still awaiting word.....but from what I hear it is ONLY the lack of prescreening of stages.

There was an issue with the database not being up to date but Euxx is doing his best to fix that.


SVISTI1911 said:
I don't see it as your game or even my game, I see it as OUR game. I like it so much I am willing to share it, being able to share it with other shooters and friends is part of what makes it so enjoyable.
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Do you think I want anything less? Do you know how much I push IPSC shooting?
The trick is..........I would like to enjoy it as well.

SVISTI1911 said:
The problem with dealing with the yahoos is it's too late on the day of the match! How would you like to drive 3+ hours to get to a match that doesn't play by the rules and they have god knows what going on once you get there? I kind of see it as someone is in a way protecting the shooters/fellow members from this, or at least attempting too.
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I guess I just have more faith in people and their level of competence.

Again address the PROBLEMs.......

SVISTI1911 said:
There is only 1 of you and only 1 of me, but here are almost 1000 IPSC Ontario shooters that share this game too. They want to know ahead of time that a Lvl II IPSC match is gonna be a Lvl II IPSC Match and not a bowling pin match, or a silhouette match etc. I would be a bit worried if they were only focusing on certain clubs actually. The rules and principles apply to all the clubs equally. Who would decide what clubs would have to be watched? Who determines that? How do you get on that sh*t list? How do you get off of it? How does this become less controlling?
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Ah ha!! That is solved by my proposed Mentor program my good man............
It is less controling because it is NOT controlling.......it is HELPING not RULING..


SVISTI1911 said:
I don't see where in the rules they say that sanctioning is optional. Rules 1.3-1.3.3 say nothing like that at all. Appendix A1 14 says international sanctioning is not required but it does says each Regional Directorate has the authority to establish their own criteria for Lvl I and Lvl II matches.
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There I bolded it for you...........see it now?



SVISTI1911 said:
It is too bad this happened, I guess mostly for the RO's that lost a point. Being lowered to a Lvl I did not affect the quality of the match, I don't think that anyone enjoyed the match any less today then they did when they shot it because of this. You still raised money for a worthy cause and helped with your new building project. I am sure, the match as most of us see it, was a great success.
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Oh I concur..........and it has spurred me on to start organizing my new mystery match that will solve all ills. It will also conform to ALL IPSC ONTARIO and IPSC WORLD, IPSC SOLAR SYSTEM, IPSC UNIVERSE rules........every last one of them.



SVISTI1911 said:
That being said I can understand why you would be upset. I think I would be too. At the very least someone from the BOD should step up and let you know why this happened.
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Well my new carrier pigeon has not even hatched yet.........poor thing is only an egg at the moment so I am not holding out hope.
 
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