Elcan C79A2 vs. ACOG TA31 for SA20 *update. Got a scope

Roddy said:
What is everyone's favorite reticle for the Acog's? The crosshair seems precise but the chevron seems easier to pick up. Does the chevron allow for pretty precise aiming?

The doughnut I really didn't like. Blocked too much of the view and flared a lot.
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I had a red chevron on a TA33 I owned a few years ago. It did allow for quite precise aiming...it was very well-defined and there was none of the "sparkliness" I get from Aimpoints. It did get very bright in full, sun, though.

Here's a pic of the reticle (although in real life it was a true red and not pinkish like it looks here:

reticle.jpg
 
Well thanks again everyone. I will give the Elcan a quick try but it will proably go on the EE.

If the rifle is no longer an exact C7A2 clone I won't feel as bad, sorry if the thought of it offends anyone, putting a Harris bipod on the A2 handguards (gasp!).

I'm not exactly sure how that will do to accuracy as it may affect harmonics but I read a really funny post on arfcom in the subject (pardon the language):

"F*** harmonics. I just want to shoot s***."
 
Local said:
ACOG's are to be used with BOTH EYES OPEN. They are not designed for surveillance or recon work, they are an aiming device. Spot your target with your eyes, mount the rifle see the target magnified in the optic(both eyes open) and shoot. the Bindon Aiming Concept works, as long as you stop closing an eye and focus on the target and not the reticle.
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Not all ACOGs have the BAC capability; the TA01 for example does not. I am so right-eye dominant than I could never get BAC to work for me, but even without that it made for a very good 3X scope.
 
Master-G said:
Not all ACOGs have the BAC capability; the TA01 for example does not. I am so right-eye dominant than I could never get BAC to work for me, but even without that it made for a very good 3X scope.
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Very true, the nsn is a dated design. Eye dominance plays little role in the BAC method.

Local
 
I don't own a c79, though I did use them many years ago, and don't recall them being particularly good or bad. Of the optics I DO own, my favorite is my TA11 ACOG. I have four Elcans, and like them very much, but that particular ACOG is my go-to optic. That being said, I think I'd take any of my Elcans (DR, OS4, OS3) over any of the other ACOG models I've tried.
 
Here's my 2 cents.

For a "combat sight" I would go ACOG

For a competition sight I would go Elcan.

We out shoot most Americans ( if not all... ) and brits with our C79A2.

I used that sight for CQB up to 600 meters shooting. Easy to adjust and very convenient to adjust ( zeros ) for many ranges. Ballistic reticules are good for combat but to be able to do clicks for wind and elevation is always more precise for comp. Now as for the sight to keep zero well... As I pointed out... Combat sight? nah... But do you use your sights in the field enough to lose zero? If you just shoot it on a casual sunday range no worries there.

I like the eye relief and field of view better with the Elcan.

Now a DR or OS models are something else... They rock for anything IMHO.


Cheers.
 
Local said:
Eye dominance plays little role in the BAC method.
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I'm not referring to right or left eye dominance, but rather how much more dominant my right eye is than my left. I can remove my left contact lens and hardly notice it even though I'm super nearsighted...for whatever reason my left eye plays much less role in my vision. It's for that reason that BAC has never worked for me.
 
Roddy said:
Does the Elcan post reticle not obscure the target at longer ranges? Do you have to dial in your elevation?
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I found the Elcan reticle to work fine at longer ranges (300m-500m) back when i was using one in SR competition. The tapered point allowed for very precise shots, too, when there was time.

qvrSgCx.jpg
 
Roddy said:
What is everyone's favorite reticle for the Acog's? The crosshair seems precise but the chevron seems easier to pick up. Does the chevron allow for pretty precise aiming?

The doughnut I really didn't like. Blocked too much of the view and flared a lot.
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The green chevron works the best for me. Very easy to pick up and the picture is much cleaner than the crosshair.
 
i have the green ch and a red chevron

crosshair is ok for some precision work but it really cant compete with a browe 4x in that department

red chevron is great for bac and quick snap shots, precision work is trickier.
 
Roddy said:
Does the Elcan post reticle not obscure the target at longer ranges? Do you have to dial in your elevation?
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No. Yes you dial your elevation. There is 2 way to do this. Using the presets on the base from 100m to 800m or use the preset drum with the "gate open" so you can be even more precise by dialing with clicks ( .25 mils ) to any distances. The good thing about that as oppose to a ballistic reticule is that you can zero and confirm to every distance for the round you actually use. Specially if you reload and use exotic rounds.

Cheers
 
Roddy said:
Gryphon I like the size, weight, and magnification of the TA31. Also from what I hear you can have more eye relief you just lose a bit of the generous field of view. That's just what I have heard.

TheM4chef, it will mostly be for range plinking but I may take it to a 3 Gun match for fun. That is my plan to try it. With regards to the 1-4x optics I have one on my Tavor and since this is a full size service rifle I would like a service rifle type optic in it, even if it's not the right one.

r34skyline, is the eye relief bad on the C79?


Thanks for all the input everyone.
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Yes it is. Keep in mind when it came out. For its time it was a remarkable optic. I personally don't like the external elevation adjuster. It works. There are worse options. But there are better options as well. As for the eye relief there is a reason the c7 back up irons are mounted ahead of the optic. That pretty much tells you what you need to know about c79 eye relief.

If you got a sweet deal and want a c7 clone. Its the option. Functionally I personally i prefer acogs. I don't know if you are stuck on the 4x model i personally prefer the 3.5x or 3x models myself.
 
Local said:
Nose to charge handle is how the iron sights on an AR are designed to be used. Keeping your head deep on the stock and thus the rifle deep on your torso provides greater stability as well.
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My understanding is NTCH is intended to provide a point of consistency to new shooters who may not shoulder the rifle the same way every time. I have never heard they were designed to be used this way but if it works for you then by all means use it. Jerry Miculek, for example, does not. My misgivings with the method involve putting your eye too close to the rear aperture which has the effect of enlarging it. This should in theory provide poorer accuracy as the margin of error for the front sight to be centered is much larger. At the end of the day it's less important where you put your head so long as you put it there consistently.

The field of view issue isn't an issue at all. ACOG's are to be used with BOTH EYES OPEN. They are not designed for surveillance or recon work, they are an aiming device. Spot your target with your eyes, mount the rifle see the target magnified in the optic(both eyes open) and shoot. the Bindon Aiming Concept works, as long as you stop closing an eye and focus on the target and not the reticle.
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That's fine if you are shooting, engaging, and moving quickly as on the battlefield or in 3-gun. I do mostly longer range target style shooting and the ACOGs are just fine for this purpose. I shoot with both eyes open but my left eye is astigmatic which means I don't benefit fully from BAC.

Lots of ways to skin a cat.
 
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So I considered what everyone said, what was available, and how I liked the Elcan.

The Elcan was nice. Glass was awesome. I wasn't a huge fan of the reticle, the weight, or the adjustment system. Very nice though.

The ACOG was my next choice as I mentioned. I really wanted a TA31 but based on recommendations I received here and other reviews online saying the TA11 has much better eye relief. I might be able to get used to nose to charging handle every time but I want new shooters to be able to use it too.

There were several donut reticle TA11's at my local Canadian Tire (it's a pretty good store!) but I wanted a green chevron or crosshair. I found one on the EE and I am quite happy with it.

Here's a pretty crumby photo:

20160126_211608_zpspd6nhfy4.jpg


I even got a Magpul back up sight on behind it. It's just a plinking toy but I really like it so far.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

Now I am thinking about getting a Harris bipod #5 adapter and a Cadex rail for my KAC vertical grip. It would give it kind of a Mk12 with the wrong handguards look. That may be a bit much stuff to hang off the end of it.
 
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