Electric primers? Just brainstorming the possibilities...

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I was just sitting around today and reflecting on how stuff works... and my thinking was somehow influenced by the fact that I was reloading some ammo a day earlier. What really caught my attention is how the cylinder operation an internal combustion engine is similar to what goes on inside a bullet - the injectors vaporize some gasoline (powder), the coil sends an electric current to the spark plug at the exact same moment (firing pin) and the spark plug then produces a spark which ignites the explosive matter (primer). The matter then explodes and moves the cylinder down (just like a bullet exiting the barrel). And the cycle is repeated over and over... thus making a 2 ton vehicle move seemingly effortless.

Now, while comparing the two almost identical processes, it has struck me that there is a major difference in both - that is, unlike the fired shell, the gas engine reuses it's primer over and over, PLUS doesn't require any moving parts (these days, anyway) in order to ignite it.

So, I figured that, in theory, it should be very feasible for firearms to be finally "updated" with a similar electric ignition design. I took a piece of paper and drew a primer based on the general structure of a spark plug - basically, the receiver would have a "+" and a "-" lead/prong that would connect to the electric primer in the brass casing (touch contact would be sufficient -just like cell phone batteries). Upon squeezing the trigger, a spark would be created inside the brass casing, thus igniting smokeless powder (provided the powder not compacted hard). The rest is pretty much self-explanatory.



Now, should this work, it would do several things:

- Remove the need to prime/deprime every time you reload (because primers are reusable hundreds of times). These primers could even be non-removable, as in being a permanent part of the casing.

- Simplify firearms design, as there would be no need for hammer/firing pin mechanisms... technically, the thing could work on a ronson lighter trigger (the barbecue kind) and therefore without even requiring any batteries, lol!. If those electric triggers can produce enough spark to light a butane lighter, they can surely light powder as well.

- Reduce production costs and reinforce structural integrity of firearms in general (fewer mechanisms = less cavities inside guns = stronger structure).



So... are there any technical difficulties for this not to exist in commercial guns yet? Seems to me like the only problem would be sure ignition... but that can be solved by having a close proximity between electrodes (as it is the case with the spark plug gap principle).

Primer.jpg



Any input would be much appreciated...

;)
 
The military channel airs a show called weapon masters. There was an episode where electric ignition was used with great success.

h ttp://military.discovery.com/tv/weapon-masters/weapon-masters.html
 
Pocketfisherman said:
The military channel airs a show called weapon masters. There was an episode where electric ignition was used with great success.

h ttp://military.discovery.com/tv/weapon-masters/weapon-masters.html
Click to expand...

Excellent! Thanks for the info... I guess that as long as my ideas are not in the "ridiculously impossible" category, it's a good start!

:D

P.S. I've never heard of this show before... I'll check it out!
 
I believe Remington had designed something like this about 10 ears ago. I remember adds for guns and new calibres. I don't know if they every came to be sold though.
 
hk33ka1 said:
I believe Remington had designed something like this about 10 ears ago. I remember adds for guns and new calibres. I don't know if they every came to be sold though.
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Well, this would also be the ultimate SHTF primer... because the traditional ones are gone after one use, whereas this can serve again and again with nothing more than a tiny bit of electricity... and would be probably cheaper to produce than the traditional ones due to it's simplicity (which is basically a bit of metal and porcelain packed together).

Now I guess I'm starting to see WHY those aren't commercially sold... anyone wanna start a partnership in producing a couple of cheap prototypes, lol?

;)
 
I remember Remington having something like that, must be more than 10 years ago though. It never seemed to get off the ground. There was a bunch of designs(inc caseless ammo) milling around and people were saying that firearm design had come about as far as it could with current materials.
If you can find a way to make small rifle primers, I'll buy them!:nest:
 
migrant hunter said:
If you can find a way to make small rifle primers, I'll buy them!:nest:
Click to expand...

That, plus a retro-fitted bolt/trigger group with + and - connectors, lol! The funny thing is that it's be relatively very easy to make... Just replace the firing pin with a rod that has the positive connector and the surrounding bolt face with the negative (with insulation in between them, of course). They become hot as the trigger is pressed, the +/- connection is made inside the casing and the cartridge goes "boom". Voilà.

:D

I guess testing would have to be done on bolt-actions first for simplicity... but there's no reason why it wouldn't work on semis.
 
Fail. No flash = no ignition of the propellant.
Spark is easy. Enough spark to light off the powder charge, without getting into wierd duplex loads of 'primer' powder plus regular, is going to be a non starter.

The Remington system was a fail due to it being pretty much the answer to a question no-one asked.

FWIW, the 20mm aircraft guns use an electric primer. One time use, though.

Cheers
Trev
 
An electric primer would require a power source, batteries tend to die at the least inopportune time.

Murphy's law in effect, Big Buck/Bear/Caribou/etc....or....Last round of a heavy Competition (timed)...is this when you want to find out your new fangled electric primer doesn't have the juice to ignite?

It's been done and failed in the past.

That being said, I have seen rifles with an electronic trigger system. Very slick but again.....Murphy and his posse.
 
trevj said:
Fail. No flash = no ignition of the propellant.
Spark is easy. Enough spark to light off the powder charge, without getting into wierd duplex loads of 'primer' powder plus regular, is going to be a non starter.
Click to expand...

Hmm.. interesting. For sure, some R&D would be required, but the principle is sound. Nevertheless, it might be something to look into, just for fun.

As for batteries, it would be possible to make it battery-less, just as stated above. If electric disposable lighters can light hundreds of times without a malfunction, I'm sure a reliable battery-less solution would be possible for a firearm as well.

Like I said, just brainstorming... :yingyang:


P.S. Also, I guess that if some sort of flammable gas were to be added inside the cartridge (along with the powder), that could help achieve sure ignition. Even half a drop of gasoline would create enough ignition fumes inside such a small casing, lol... no need to go high-tech. :p
 
Yikes...

so many issues here

First the brass case and primer seal the chamber, how are you going to acheive this ?

Spark is going to have to be a lot hotter or your going to need some sort of accellerator / duplex load, that is more complex

why not throw in liquid propellent and get rid of the powder too :) some good research ans been done on using liquid propellents for artillary but there are alot of other problems with that.

Also just to throw another wrench in the works, there was the issue of 'lock time' with the electric primers they are slower to ignite the propelent then the normal primers
 
Back 30 years, I remember plans for homebuilt black powder guns using electric glow plugs from little model aircraft motors wired to a battery in the stock - a microswitch completed the circuit and it would evidently cause instant ignition. That would easily replace percussion caps.

On a side note, I use a diesel engine glow plug drilled into a steel pipe cap filled with lead to anneal rifle brass. Powered by a battery charger, it is variable temperature.
 
I took some flake powder and sprinkled it on a piece of sheet metal. I then ran a wire from the spark plug boot on my truck and let it arc to the metal, right through the powder. I did eventually ignite, but it took a LOT of hits.....like about 30-40 seconds of the engine running at aprox 700 RPM. I wouldn't want to walk around with an ignition coil, control system and a 12 volt battery with success like that.
Good idea, but I think it's been explored by a lot better than you and I and I don't see a commercially viable portable system yet.
 
The etronix rifle was a remington model 700 rifle with an electronic trigger - not mechanical - so lock time was the speed of light. The ammo used an electric initiated primer instead of a firing pin intiated primer. The primer was one time use only. It was only advertised for 1-2 years.
 
Our old Leopard tanks use electrically fired 105mm ammo, the gun has a firing needle assembly which contacts the primer. It works great.
 
As mentioned, the Remington EtronX primeres came and went pretty quick.

The idea is sound, large cal artillery has used electric priming for decades, but Rem. charged far too much for the gun, and probably the ammo too.
 
tootall said:
As mentioned, the Remington EtronX primeres came and went pretty quick.

The idea is sound, large cal artillery has used electric priming for decades, but Rem. charged far too much for the gun, and probably the ammo too.
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Still available, at around $200+ per thousand.

Another big problem in a reusable electric (spark type) primer would be insulation distances. You would need something the diameter of a spark plug for insulation to keep the spark arcing in the right place.

World of difference between reusable spark ignition and an electric primer.
 
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