Is it true there are zero EDM services available in Canada? Seems unlikely that people wouldn't own EDM machines. If I were to buy one and offer to do barrel ports, how many barrels do you suppose would be shipped to me in the first month?
Electrical Discharge Machining
- Thread starter Tack Driver Armoury
- Start date
I doubt you would ever pay for the machine let alone your labour.
I would much prefer a muzzle brake over the style of porting that Magna Port does in the US and was done here in Canada many years ago. Magna Porting has it's flaws as well as it's benefits.
I wanted to port my JRC barrel (it doesn't need a muzzle, and it is long enough to not need be any longer) but I can't get anyone to do barrel ports. I know there are plenty of people interested in having one or more barrels ported, and for whatever reason the machinists who have EDMs have zero interest in touching firearms or firearm parts like they're a taboo subject. I don't get it. How flipping difficult is it to drill 6 holes with an EDM through an inch of steel? I'm not asking for an EDM-milled receiver.
What flaws and benefits?
Flaws:
-hard to clean
-can't be removed (without cutting your barrel back)
-less effective
Benefits:
-doesn't add length
-better looking (vs brake)
-nice option for rifles with a front sight, especially banded front sights.
-hard to clean
-can't be removed (without cutting your barrel back)
-less effective
Benefits:
-doesn't add length
-better looking (vs brake)
-nice option for rifles with a front sight, especially banded front sights.
In order to legally work on a firearm a business requires a Firearms Business License. The owner of a successful machine shop probably does not want the hassle of a Firearms Business License and all the hassle that would go with it and the increased business insurance costs...
Flaws...
just about every ported rifle barrel (that has been used a few years) I have closely looked at has damage inside the barrel where dust/debris has settled and has pitted and worn the barrel when fired.
cleaning is a pain to do properly.
does not reduce recoil as much as a brake
Benefits...
looks good
I appreciate the response but considering I'm doing round ports on a 20" .40S&W barrel, there is very little recoil to begin with (effective?) and the barrel cannot be cut without becoming prohibited and round ports are easy to clean -- it's those odd trapezoidal ports on handguns that are difficult to clean. I don't want to add length, it doesn't need braking, and it doesn't really matter how it looks as long as it looks professionally ported.
The dust/debris damage is occurring near the muzzle? Do you think an expansion chamber would eliminate this problem? Is this the only true flaw? We're not talking about money or effort. Currently I see EDM ports as more economical and feasible than getting it threaded because I've designed an EDM, and with my setup I can do any future barrels for myself or for friends. Can't undo obviously but a new barrel would be less than $300 which is what I'm quoted for threading, anyway.
- Location
- calgary alberta
There are different types of EDM. We have 2 "wire" EDMs in the shop, but you would need "plunge" or "drill" type to do the porting of a barrel.
EDM machines are becoming more common place, but given they cost several times more than most CNC mills and lathes are usually relegated to specialty machine shops.
EDM machines are becoming more common place, but given they cost several times more than most CNC mills and lathes are usually relegated to specialty machine shops.
I've got a working 10-Amp prototype, it is the RF type of EDM and I'm using a simple drill press for automated plunge operation. This is phase 1.
Phase 2 will adapt this for lathe-type work to uniformly remove material without depositing any toolmarks, using a computer interface. (solid brass 50bmg bullets without toolmarks? I'm gonna love it!)
There are more phases.
A good porting is better than the best crown. Also, if you angle the ports you induce directional force if I did want to mitigate recoil, which is more significant in high-pressure barrels of course, but with perpendicular ports I could eliminate the slight lift I get on the JRC 40S&W.
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There are lots of EDM machines. The trick is having the right size and shape electrode(that gets machined to size and shape) then putting the holes in the right place and at the right angle. Porting is not just putting holes in the barrel and slide. Porting is a form of muzzle brake.
I suspect you'd see few if any in the first month. You'd need to learn how it's done and nobody trusts an FNG. Nothing personal, but you know that's how it goes.
I suspect you'd see few if any in the first month. You'd need to learn how it's done and nobody trusts an FNG. Nothing personal, but you know that's how it goes.
I hear you. I'm still fine-tuning the process and trying different workpiece metals and different dielectrics; haven't touched any barrel yet. I'm doing this for me and if I do a good job, that's all that matters right now. If it opens up some doors professionally, the work will have to stand for itself.
There's at least one, it's in the shop I work at. But it's a wire type EDM. You need a plunging electrode type. And a fairly large one to submerse the entire barrel into the dialectric fluid. As well, you'd need the apropriate size carbon electrodes to make the holes.
No EDM Machines? Whoever told you that, well, you need a better source of information, really.
Some of the older die sinker or plunge EDM's are coming on to the market these days for prices a hobby guy can afford. Whether they can afford the space and power supply constraints, however...
New prices reflect the amount of technology therein. Old ones reflect the amount of headaches that are tied in with the often proprietary, hard to replace computer parts (stuff like Japanese home -market disk drives and boards) and the relative lack of ease in getting one running again if it quits.
I have seen a few Wire machines come up for sale at reasonable prices too, ~$5K, but not as common as a plunge.
EDM's tend to fit a little differently into the machine shop world, and usually seem to end up in a more specialized environment.
Your bullets idea sounds interesting, but I would not hold my breath on being able to produce a bullet that is enough better to justify the cost you would need to charge.
Oh. There are plans available to build your own plunge and wire EDM's, and have been for some time. You pretty much need to have lot of electronics background for them to be worth anything to you though.
Cheers
Trev
Carbon, really? I've got some copper-tungsten rods that seem to be working well. I know if I want a shaped bit I'll need to mill graphite, is this what you meant?
The costs for average-home-use for EDM is currently prohibitive, much like the cost of 3D printers and we have a Canadian team working on PeachyPrinter.com for affordable home 3D printing. This is the same line of thinking, where I want to bring the costs down and utilize people's laptops instead of embedded microcontrollers and stuff. I have en electrical engineering background so this is no problem, it's been a fun project. Those DIY EDM's you cannot mass-produce or use professionally, either. Lots of people don't have the patience for building one, so why wouldn't they want to buy one for say $500 that operates 10x faster than those low-power DIY units? The fine cut will always be slow, too.
And yes obviously there are plenty of EDM machines but nobody wants to do barrel porting with theirs.
Right. Because they can make more money, with fewer headaches, doing other work.
That's a long way away from "zero EDM services available in Canada". Strange concept, I know, but maybe you could consider that a pretty reasonable assessment of the value of investing in an EDM machine for that purpose.
If you can build a 500 dollar edm machine, go for it. I might even buy one if it has any capability at all. But given the practicalities of the power supplies needed, as well as the control circuitry, I'm thinking probably not.
Re: peachyprinter. Whopdeskip. More plastic ge-gaws.
I am fairly aware of what the capabilities are of the 3D printing industry. I am also fairly aware of the actual usefulness of the stuff. For what it's good for, it's good for indeed. Providing a physical representation of a solid model, so one can assess fit, feel, and form. Prototyping. OK. For providing useful, durable finished goods? Not so much, until you spend money that will make buying a new EDM look downright attractive.
The very few marketed products that I have seen that were made on a low-rent 3D printer, looked it.
Which loops us right back to comparing Hobby grade equipment with other hobby grade equipment. Of course it's not comparable to Industrial Grade equipment. But it can be done if one wishes to have the stuff.
Cheers
Trev
I would have to agree with the group here. There are many tooling shops that have them. I've got 2 wire cut EDM's, of no use for this particular application. Generally small jobs like that would be too labor intensive to set up for what most people would be interested in paying. Perhaps if you could get an older unit and set it up with a chuck to index the barrel off of, with enough customers it could be a lucrative opportunity for someone.
We have one at work. It does an excellent job of burning AR magwells (believe me we know), but it's slow going. About 3hrs for an ar magwell and 8hrs for an AR10, and that's with the magwell roughed out to within a few thou. To be honest, it wasn't worth the effort. One thing you will find, and it has happened here more than a few times (think group buys). You will get a hundred people who say yeah porting is a great idea, right up till it's time to get off the pot and put their money down, and then the silence is deafening. Personally, you wouldn't be getting my business till you have built a solid reputation, and if you are doing work for someone else you better be ready to replace their barrel if you screw it up.
Now, another of the problems you face, is to see what you are ACTUALLY up against as far as the stuff out there that offers any capability at all, WRT whether designing a $500 EDM system is going to be worth your time and effort, is to go and take a look at what is available out there in the way of used machines.
I would suggest that there are actually less headaches getting a used machine up and running than there would be with a Hobby Grade one, both from the perspective that you know going in to it what it should be capable of, and there is some small group of experienced users out there that you can turn to for information.
Lots of mid 1980's and later tech out there available for around a grand. Have seen some pretty decent, working wire units offered for under $5K. More money gets you newer or better, but to compare to a hobby shop system, well, not really comparable, other than the description of how it works in a most basic sense. Maybe not local, but trucking is pretty cheap, compared to actually going and picking it up.
Cheers
Trev
I would suggest that there are actually less headaches getting a used machine up and running than there would be with a Hobby Grade one, both from the perspective that you know going in to it what it should be capable of, and there is some small group of experienced users out there that you can turn to for information.
Lots of mid 1980's and later tech out there available for around a grand. Have seen some pretty decent, working wire units offered for under $5K. More money gets you newer or better, but to compare to a hobby shop system, well, not really comparable, other than the description of how it works in a most basic sense. Maybe not local, but trucking is pretty cheap, compared to actually going and picking it up.
Cheers
Trev
