He doesn't sound happy lol
Elk and the 140 grain Berger VLD. Poor performance.
- Thread starter logan1080
- Start date
He doesn't sound happy lol
Bergers are very frangible bullets...and while many have used them successfully, the performance I had from trying it on game (one time, a 140 gr VLD Hunting bullet loaded in HSM ammo for the 6.5x55 @ 150 yards, so not a great sample) was less than satisfactory; although the caribou died from the slightly quartering broadside shot after a 400 yard death run. I found that the bullet had split, with the smaller piece penetrating the lungs and exiting the chest while the larger piece deflected and travelled back through the stomach/intestines and lodged near the hind quarter. I cannot complain about its accuracy, as this ammo shoot better than 1/2" groups in my rifle. Paper/target: yes. Hunting: no.
I would recommend the Nosler AccuBond, if you can find them. My experience with this bullet in all calibers and cartridges used since this bullet was first introduced has been stellar. It is easy to quickly work up accurate loads for and on-game performance has been excellent in all instances where the bullet was placed accurately in the vitals, regardless of caliber/cartridge, game and distance (antelope to bison in 6.5 to 375). It is my favourite bullet overall.
I will say that so far I have been favourably impressed by the accuracy and on-game performance of the Federal Terminal Ascent bullet!
In my 6.5 Creedmoor (and now my wife's rifle too) it shoots the factory ammo sub-MOA in both rifles (and better than 1/2MOA in mine), and we used my rifle to take red stag, fallow buck and arapawa rams in New Zealand this spring, and I took a young caribou bull with it this fall. Ranges were from 43 yards (caribou) to 296 (red stag). All bullets fully penetrated the animal, and no animals went more than 15 yards from the place hit to where they expired! Hoping to get to recover a bullet to check expansion and weight retention at some point.
It is shooting .7" groups out og my 18 1/2" barreled 270 Win (136 gr bullet) mannlicher rifle, and just a hair over 1" in my 300 WSM (200 gr bullet). (Have not yet taken game with either rifle and this ammo yet). I have the 300 WSM sighted in for hunting with this ammo for now to get some on-game experience with it, even though the preferred load in this rifle is the 180 gr AccuBond ammo (both Federal factory and my handloads are just under 1/2")
I am trying to locate this ammo for my new 6.5 PRC and am hoping that it will perform as well here too.
While it is not as accurate as the AccuBond ammo or handloads in these rifles, I am happy with the on-game performance so far and am hoping to get more experience, and hopefully find component bullets to see if I can improve on accuracy with them in these rifles with handloads.
I have only taken one animal (young bull moose @ 15 yards) with the Hornady ELD-X bullet to date (from my 6.5 CM). The shot was a frontal shot, and the bull turned and stumbled about 5 yards before going down and expiring. The bullet just nicked the side of the ribcage (a bit of gilding metal found here) as it entered the chest beside the trachea/esophaugus. The bullet made a mess out of the heart and lungs, but never made it past the diaphragm. I was unable to recover the bullet as it, or any remains of it, were lost in the mess of the heart and lungs and blood inside the thoracic cavity. Again, just a sample of one, but with no bullet recovered, I am not sure as to what may have been the result of expansion and weight retention on this bullet...and with it being at such close range...it would not have been typical on-game performance for the bullet as would be experienced at more typical hunting ranges (100 yards or more). I will have to see more on-game field experience before I make any more judgement on its suitability. And again, this ammo shoots better than 1/2" groups in my rifle, so I cannot complain about its accuracy. If further experience results in experience similar to what I am hearing, it may just be reserved for our medium sized big-game, and I will continue to use stouter bullets for moose and elk, etc.
I have tried several factory loads in my new 6.5 PRC (LH Browning X Bolt Hunter w/ 24" Wilson carbon fibre barrel) on its maiden voyage to the range, including:
- Hornady 130 gr CX - 2.012" group @ 3110 fps; definitely does not like this load as well as the following
- Federal 140 gr Fusion - 0.537" group @ 2834 fps; have not heard of any rifle not shooting this ammo acceptably well to date
- Sako 140 gr TGK - 0.762" group @ 2776 fps;
- Nosler 140 gr AccuBond - .632" group @ 2744 fps; rifle sighted in for this load at this time for hunting
- Nosler 140 gr Ballistic Tip - 0.919" group @ 2829 fps; and
- Hornady 143 gr ELD-X - 0.762" group @ 2837 fps.
So far, the overall average group size for the 140/143 gr class of bullets is 0.722". The rifle is showing good promise!
The velocities are slower than I was expecting (but not terrible), but we'll see if this improves as the rifle is broken in.
Again, looking forward to trying the Terminal Ascent ammo in this rifle once I can find some!
I would recommend the Nosler AccuBond, if you can find them. My experience with this bullet in all calibers and cartridges used since this bullet was first introduced has been stellar. It is easy to quickly work up accurate loads for and on-game performance has been excellent in all instances where the bullet was placed accurately in the vitals, regardless of caliber/cartridge, game and distance (antelope to bison in 6.5 to 375). It is my favourite bullet overall.
I will say that so far I have been favourably impressed by the accuracy and on-game performance of the Federal Terminal Ascent bullet!
In my 6.5 Creedmoor (and now my wife's rifle too) it shoots the factory ammo sub-MOA in both rifles (and better than 1/2MOA in mine), and we used my rifle to take red stag, fallow buck and arapawa rams in New Zealand this spring, and I took a young caribou bull with it this fall. Ranges were from 43 yards (caribou) to 296 (red stag). All bullets fully penetrated the animal, and no animals went more than 15 yards from the place hit to where they expired! Hoping to get to recover a bullet to check expansion and weight retention at some point.
It is shooting .7" groups out og my 18 1/2" barreled 270 Win (136 gr bullet) mannlicher rifle, and just a hair over 1" in my 300 WSM (200 gr bullet). (Have not yet taken game with either rifle and this ammo yet). I have the 300 WSM sighted in for hunting with this ammo for now to get some on-game experience with it, even though the preferred load in this rifle is the 180 gr AccuBond ammo (both Federal factory and my handloads are just under 1/2")
I am trying to locate this ammo for my new 6.5 PRC and am hoping that it will perform as well here too.
While it is not as accurate as the AccuBond ammo or handloads in these rifles, I am happy with the on-game performance so far and am hoping to get more experience, and hopefully find component bullets to see if I can improve on accuracy with them in these rifles with handloads.
I have only taken one animal (young bull moose @ 15 yards) with the Hornady ELD-X bullet to date (from my 6.5 CM). The shot was a frontal shot, and the bull turned and stumbled about 5 yards before going down and expiring. The bullet just nicked the side of the ribcage (a bit of gilding metal found here) as it entered the chest beside the trachea/esophaugus. The bullet made a mess out of the heart and lungs, but never made it past the diaphragm. I was unable to recover the bullet as it, or any remains of it, were lost in the mess of the heart and lungs and blood inside the thoracic cavity. Again, just a sample of one, but with no bullet recovered, I am not sure as to what may have been the result of expansion and weight retention on this bullet...and with it being at such close range...it would not have been typical on-game performance for the bullet as would be experienced at more typical hunting ranges (100 yards or more). I will have to see more on-game field experience before I make any more judgement on its suitability. And again, this ammo shoots better than 1/2" groups in my rifle, so I cannot complain about its accuracy. If further experience results in experience similar to what I am hearing, it may just be reserved for our medium sized big-game, and I will continue to use stouter bullets for moose and elk, etc.
I have tried several factory loads in my new 6.5 PRC (LH Browning X Bolt Hunter w/ 24" Wilson carbon fibre barrel) on its maiden voyage to the range, including:
- Hornady 130 gr CX - 2.012" group @ 3110 fps; definitely does not like this load as well as the following
- Federal 140 gr Fusion - 0.537" group @ 2834 fps; have not heard of any rifle not shooting this ammo acceptably well to date
- Sako 140 gr TGK - 0.762" group @ 2776 fps;
- Nosler 140 gr AccuBond - .632" group @ 2744 fps; rifle sighted in for this load at this time for hunting
- Nosler 140 gr Ballistic Tip - 0.919" group @ 2829 fps; and
- Hornady 143 gr ELD-X - 0.762" group @ 2837 fps.
So far, the overall average group size for the 140/143 gr class of bullets is 0.722". The rifle is showing good promise!
The velocities are slower than I was expecting (but not terrible), but we'll see if this improves as the rifle is broken in.
Again, looking forward to trying the Terminal Ascent ammo in this rifle once I can find some!
I suspect that the modern interest in long range hunting (if you can call it that) has spurred the development of what were once regarded as pure match bullets into a form of hybrid match/hunting designs. Unfortunately it seems the Match/hunting hybrids retain more of the characteristics of match than of hunting designs. They are generally highly accurate but with poor hunting characteristics.
The new hybrid designs are at best a return to the older cup and core designs for hunting bullets. In these designs there is no real bonding mechanism to bond lead core to jacket. It is a friction fit that is the primary bonding mechanism and in the high pressure impact on a heavy large game critter (especially on bone) the jacket can separate from the core and the core will fragment in pieces resulting in poor penetration and blood shot meat.
If everything goes perfectly - for instance the shot presentation is the classical broadside and the shot is perfectly placed just behind the shoulder this can work fine with the lungs being shredded and minimal meat loss. Penetration in this case is adequate. If however the shot presentation is less than perfect and the shot is a front or rear raking shot there is a good chance that shoulder bone (either near shoulder or far shoulder) will be impacted and the heavy resistance will cause the cup and core design to explode into sharpnel greatly lowering penetration and damaging meat. Much time,money and technology has been invested by ballistics engineers to ensure this is not the outcome.
This is why modern designed bullets for hunting use some sort of bonding process whether it be a mechanical locking system on the bullet jacket (interlock design) or a molecular bonding process (accubond design) or partition design to ensure the jacket and lead core stay together for as long as possible with maximum retained bullet weight no matter what resistance the bullet will encounter. This will ensure good penetration, straight through tracking and minimal meat destruction.
IMHO much emphasis has been placed on external ballistics since many hunters seem to desire the long shot that the terminal ballistics of the bullet has been neglected (perhaps purposely). Hunters insist now more than ever on sub MOA accuracy in their hunting ammo especially since laser range finders and ballistic calculators are now the norm..
Ammo companies will supply whatever the market wants. Hopefully the hunter hybrid designs will be improved when hunters get tired of losing animals due to inadequate terminal performance. I for one will try to stick to proven bonded bullet technology in my choices of hunting bullets until there is a big improvement in the hybrids.
The new hybrid designs are at best a return to the older cup and core designs for hunting bullets. In these designs there is no real bonding mechanism to bond lead core to jacket. It is a friction fit that is the primary bonding mechanism and in the high pressure impact on a heavy large game critter (especially on bone) the jacket can separate from the core and the core will fragment in pieces resulting in poor penetration and blood shot meat.
If everything goes perfectly - for instance the shot presentation is the classical broadside and the shot is perfectly placed just behind the shoulder this can work fine with the lungs being shredded and minimal meat loss. Penetration in this case is adequate. If however the shot presentation is less than perfect and the shot is a front or rear raking shot there is a good chance that shoulder bone (either near shoulder or far shoulder) will be impacted and the heavy resistance will cause the cup and core design to explode into sharpnel greatly lowering penetration and damaging meat. Much time,money and technology has been invested by ballistics engineers to ensure this is not the outcome.
This is why modern designed bullets for hunting use some sort of bonding process whether it be a mechanical locking system on the bullet jacket (interlock design) or a molecular bonding process (accubond design) or partition design to ensure the jacket and lead core stay together for as long as possible with maximum retained bullet weight no matter what resistance the bullet will encounter. This will ensure good penetration, straight through tracking and minimal meat destruction.
IMHO much emphasis has been placed on external ballistics since many hunters seem to desire the long shot that the terminal ballistics of the bullet has been neglected (perhaps purposely). Hunters insist now more than ever on sub MOA accuracy in their hunting ammo especially since laser range finders and ballistic calculators are now the norm..
Ammo companies will supply whatever the market wants. Hopefully the hunter hybrid designs will be improved when hunters get tired of losing animals due to inadequate terminal performance. I for one will try to stick to proven bonded bullet technology in my choices of hunting bullets until there is a big improvement in the hybrids.
- Location
- AB foothills
Fixed it for ya!
One experience with a friend using the 168gr vld in his 7mmremmag to take a moose soured me on the vld. Two hits, quartering away, and both did minimal damage to the lungs due to inadequate penetration. I will stick with monometals or bonded bullets for elk and moose.
Interesting article by Berger.
After years of bullet companies stressing that proper expansion, a proper wound channel, weight retention and penetration was necessary for the best outcome Berger says NO NO you got it all wrong - we want the bullet to enter and then grenade.
I call BS. What happened was that Berger didn't anticipate this was going to be an issue, concentrating on the super accurate well placed shot which they thought would give them a leg up in the industry and which while important isn't the whole story. The bullet has to be accurately placed - Yes, but when it gets there it's also got to do a job.
Again perhaps fine in a classic broadside shot but all sorts of less than optimum bullet angles through animals can occur and one should plan for worst case scenarios. Sorry Berger but I smell Damage Control.
- Location
- Saskatchewan
Berger bullets are fine for targets. Real hunting, not so much.
Go with Barnes and never worry again! About 15 animals down with various Barnes bullets.
My wife took a brute of a Black Bear with her 7mm08 and the 120TTSX. it went 7 yards. She also took a mule deer with a 110TTSX last year at around 200 meters... it did a circle and dropped dead.
I took a moose last year with mm 3006 and the 168TTSX at about 250m... it went about 40 yards downhill into the creek bottom but there was a ton of blood to follow.
Can't really recall how many whitetail deer I have taken with the 129 LRX out of the 270 and 168TTX out of the 3006, but all except for one had great blood trails and complete pass-throughs... In the one instance, I did recover the bullet and it was very little blood... It had hit the front shoulder and stopped in the far shoulder, leaving only a small entry hole, but it resulted in a dead deer 50 years away from where I shot him...
For me, it's proved itself and I like the idea of not feeding my family Lead!!
I understand none of these animals are as tough as an elk, but I am beyond confident that they have the penetration and terminal performance to get the job done if you can connect with 2000fps at impact.
My wife took a brute of a Black Bear with her 7mm08 and the 120TTSX. it went 7 yards. She also took a mule deer with a 110TTSX last year at around 200 meters... it did a circle and dropped dead.
I took a moose last year with mm 3006 and the 168TTSX at about 250m... it went about 40 yards downhill into the creek bottom but there was a ton of blood to follow.
Can't really recall how many whitetail deer I have taken with the 129 LRX out of the 270 and 168TTX out of the 3006, but all except for one had great blood trails and complete pass-throughs... In the one instance, I did recover the bullet and it was very little blood... It had hit the front shoulder and stopped in the far shoulder, leaving only a small entry hole, but it resulted in a dead deer 50 years away from where I shot him...
For me, it's proved itself and I like the idea of not feeding my family Lead!!
I understand none of these animals are as tough as an elk, but I am beyond confident that they have the penetration and terminal performance to get the job done if you can connect with 2000fps at impact.
Forget who penned the phrase, but it goes something like:
"Don't use the bullet that will work when everything goes right...use the bullet that will work when everything goes wrong."
And it might have been "cartridge" instead of "bullet". And "choose" instead of "use".
Someone here may know and be able to say who it was, and get the quote correct.
At the end of the day, there is a lot of wisdom in the statement!
"Don't use the bullet that will work when everything goes right...use the bullet that will work when everything goes wrong."
And it might have been "cartridge" instead of "bullet". And "choose" instead of "use".
Someone here may know and be able to say who it was, and get the quote correct.
At the end of the day, there is a lot of wisdom in the statement!
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Frankly, anything under 400 yards is not a long shot. The Bergers wouldn't be my choice in the small calibers and standard weights. 7mm and 168/175gr (7mm bullets) would be my bare minimum and prefer a 300 Winchester with 205/210gr bullets would be better. Mind you, I'm talking the 500-1000 yard range. Inside 500 I'd use a Swift Scirocco, Nosler LRAB or even a Partition or A-Frame in the standard hunting weights for caliber (160 for 7mm, 180 for 300 etc). In your 6.5 Pork I would try the LRAB or Scirocco to get the best of both worlds rather than the specialized Bergers that are better suited for longer range and, frankly, the high shoulder shot that is effective, but wasteful.
Wrong choice of bullet. The same happened recently with a guy who was hunting moose in Newfoundland. He used 180 grains SST in a 30-06. He shot a cow at 50 meters, got much blood but was unable to find the cow. The bullet had exploded without penetrating. I had warned him beforehand not to use that bullet, to no avail.
The bigger the animal, the more penetration is needed. As Eagleye said it, one could not go wrong with Partition, A Frames or Accubonds for moose and similar animals. Momometals work very well too, and last but not least the good old Core Lokt.
The bigger the animal, the more penetration is needed. As Eagleye said it, one could not go wrong with Partition, A Frames or Accubonds for moose and similar animals. Momometals work very well too, and last but not least the good old Core Lokt.
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
I’ve done very well with Bergers in 30 cal on Moose. Just exactly as advertised.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
The ELD-X is basically a Hornady SST without the cannelure, so pretty explosive, much like a Nosler Ballistic Tip. I think some are maybe thinking the "X" puts it in the same league as the term coined by Barnes. Probably not unintentional on Hornady's part.
