Ellwood Epps customer service -- unhappy!

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Harrier .45 said:
For clarification:

All firearms purchased as new items carry a manufacturer's warranty that must be handled by the authorized repair depot. Guns, unlike cell phones, toaster ovens, vacuum cleaners, and the like, are registered to the individual owner. Once a firearm has been registered to one person, the warranty is not transferrable to another buyer unless the distributor permits the firearm to be returned for inspection, and it is found to be un-repairable.

While we most definitely agree with and understand your frustration in this matter, buyers must understand that part of our agreements in place with distributors and manufacturers is that warrantied items must be returned to the authorized depot for assessment. It is then the distributor who determines whether the firearm should be repaired or replaced, and whether they will send the original item back to the manufacturer as a defective product.

We have dealt with these issues on many occasions. As a customer myself, I would certainly be concerned if a defective item could not be repaired or exchanged, but perhaps if you had asked the salesperson with whom you dealt to explain the situation you might have had a better understanding of the problem. We cannot simply exchange new firearms. It is just not that simple. Any firearms dealer will confirm this with regard to new guns only. With used guns, we do offer a 30-day no-questions-asked return policy for defects or problems, but that warranty is offered through our store, and not from the manufacturer.

To the OP: Please contact Kevin at info@ellwoodepps.com, and we will discuss this matter. We can take the gun back into our store and negotiate the shipping to and from Wortner's, which is the authorized S&W warranty depot. If Wortner's and S&W agree that the firearm is beyond repair, we can then provide you with a new model. Otherwise, we will have your firearm repaired as quickly as Wortner's is able.

The suggestions that Ellwood Epps has become 'lazy' or 'does not care about their customers' could not be farther from the truth! We routinely do all that we can -- and in many cases, more than we are permitted to do by our distributors -- to correct issues such as this. I believe you will find many postings on GunNutz confirming the lengths we routinely go to in order to satisfy our customers as we are able.

Of course there will always be those individual who are unsatisfied no matter what efforts we make, but this particular issue is one that has been discussed on many occasions, and is not unique to the firearms industry. Try to exchange a new automobile because of a manufacturer's defect, or try to return opened software with a defect. These are the procedures that the manufacturers and distributors have outlined for retailers such as ourselves, and it is these guidelines that we must follow if we are to continue to carry the products from these companies.
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I read the org. post that the OP made. Maybe you should read it again. He is not complaining that the gun does not work but rather why he has to foot the bill for shipping it back and forth again because he received a faulty product.
Also why are you saying that you can neg. the shipping? How can it possible be his fault that he received a product that does not work?

We all understand how the repair or replacement of guns works. What we don't understand is why we should have to pay twice or even three times for things that should have been right the first time.

Graydog
 
Harrier .45 said:
To the OP:

The suggestions that Ellwood Epps has become 'lazy' or 'does not care about their customers' could not be farther from the truth! We routinely do all that we can -- and in many cases, more than we are permitted to do by our distributors -- to correct issues such as this. I believe you will find many postings on GunNutz confirming the lengths we routinely go to in order to satisfy our customers as we are able. .
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If you cared about your customers you would take the gun back and give him another new one, and you would deal with the warrenty work yourself.

I bought a new firearm for a local dealer. Took it to the range and the extractor blew. Went right back. Gave me a new one no questions asked.

I even shot mine. This gun was not even fired. Taken out of the box.

Come on.....

Thanks for posting OP.
 
Lol... I got a gun from them in the past and after only 10 rounds the front sight fell off. It was BNIB.

Sent them a few e-mails with pictures... They did not gave a f**k!

I understand that they are not responsible for that kind of defects and exchanging may not be an option but heh... Pay a shipping or two at least? No? Why an extra 80$ of expressPost to buy something new that is broken or has a fabrication defect on it? Really.

At the end the gun got repaired locally, paid for everything. Bummer.
 
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CdnCombatMedic said:
If you cared about your customers you would take the gun back and give him another new one, and you would deal with the warrenty work yourself.

I bought a new firearm for a local dealer. Took it to the range and the extractor blew. Went right back. Gave me a new one no questions asked.

I even shot mine. This gun was not even fired. Taken out of the box.

Come on.....

Thanks for posting OP.
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I agree with this one. BNIB, then it should work. Take the gun back, replace with a new one, and deal with the distributor for warranty or replacement. The end-user should not bear the hassle of receiving a defective product and sending it fro warranty repair. Maybe a refund if the buyer does want to take further risk.

Also, it might be a good point for dealers to ask the buyer for a consent to test-fire the gun before it leaves the store. A test target paper will be included in the shipment together with the spent cartridge/s. I had a mid-range target class air pistol purchased years ago, and I have one of their test target before the gun was shipped to local dealers.
 
scianna54 said:

With used guns, we do offer a 30-day no-questions-asked return policy for defects or problems, but that warranty is offered through our store, and not from the manufacturer.

I have read opposite statements from you on this site and will mark THIS comment for future references.
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I can attest to this policy being true. I purchased a Cooey 600 years ago, and was on the way to the cottage for the week. Gun didn't work so I went back a week later on the way home. The guys at Epps offered me a refund, or a different gun. They had a different cooey that was priced higher as it was in really good shape, but the one I bought came with a scope and angle mount. The guys swapped the scope and mount onto the new gun, and didn't even charge me the price difference.
 
Try to exchange a new automobile because of a manufacturer's defect...
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doable under "lemon law" ;)

The Canadian Motor Vehicle Arbitration Plan Canada - Canadian Motor Vehicle Arbitration Plan is the dispute resolution program for consumers in Canada that have problems with the assembly of their vehicle or with how the manufacturer implements its new vehicle warranty. CAMVAP covers new or used owned or leased vehicles that are from the current model year and up to an additional four model years old.

CAMVAP is an arbitration program. It is free to consumers. Hearings are held in the consumer's home community. The process normally takes less than 70 days from start to finish. Most consumers are able to handle their own case without the assistance of lawyers. The manufacturers do not use lawyers. Their representatives usually are serving or retired district parts and services representatives. An inspection of the vehicle normally is part of an arbitration hearing and the arbitrator can order a technical inspection of the vehicle at the program's expense if doing so is required.

CAMVAP arbitrators can order the manufacturer to buyback the vehicle; repair it at the manufacturer's expense; pay for repairs already completed; pay out of pocket expenses for items such as towing, diagnostic testing, rental cars and accommodation related to the problem with the vehicle. The arbitrator can also order that the manufacturer has no liability.

CAMVAP is available in every Canadian Province and Territory.
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All you guys saying they should just take the gun back obviously have little experience with guns and warranty work!

Like I said this is the norm for the firearms businesses, and while some may go over and above that it can't be expected.

I think an offer to pay for shipping is a fair deal, but to expect more is just setting yourself up for dissapointment.
 
scianna54 said:
We can take the gun back into our store and negotiate the shipping to and from Wortner's, which is the authorized S&W warranty depot

negotiate? what term is that?


With used guns, we do offer a 30-day no-questions-asked return policy for defects or problems, but that warranty is offered through our store, and not from the manufacturer.

I have read opposite statements from you on this site and will mark THIS comment for future references.

All firearms purchased as new items carry a manufacturer's warranty that must be handled by the authorized repair depot. Guns, unlike cell phones, toaster ovens, vacuum cleaners, and the like, are registered to the individual owner. Once a firearm has been registered to one person, the warranty is not transferrable to another buyer unless the distributor permits the firearm to be returned for inspection, and it is found to be un-repairable.

This is not true since the gun is registered with the government and not the manufacturer, you can easily transfer it back to your business and send it in to the manufacturer. Or are you saying that Epps knew about the defect and sold it to a customer knowingly?
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Now, I know that this will open yet another can of worms, and some of you will jump all over this reply as soon as it is posted, but here it is anyway, again, for clarification:

Scianna: the 'negotiation' part of shipping will be conducted with the OP, not with you, or another jump-in who wishes to exert their little tidbit of pressure on this matter. To be frank, warranties work like this: the customer ships the product to the warranty depot at their cost. The depot then absorbs the shipping cost to return the product once the repair is completed. Look into it. This is standard practice for ANY warranty repair product.

As for those "opposite statements" you claim to have read from me in some previous post, the statements made herein have always been our policy for used firearms only. That is 30 days return for defective products. Like any business, we do not accept returns on an item simply because you did not like the look or the colour of it once you got the product home. "No questions asked" refers to function or fault of the item purchased, not buyer's remorse.

With regard to registration, once a firearm is listed as sold and registered to an individual, it is recorded as a sold/registered/used item with the government. This same record follows the firearm forever more, much like the trail of ownership on a vehicle. Once the registration has been approved, the firearm is no longer available to be listed as a New firearm, and thus, as noted, the warranty cannot be transferred to a secondary buyer. Again, only the distributor or the manufacturer can authorize the return of an item to their warehouse, and the final decision so to whether to repair or replace that item with a new model, under the current warranty agreement.

If some other company has made the decision to exchange a firearm on their own, that is their prerogative. We are uncertain how they negotiate the reinstatement of a warranty on an item that has already been sold, without prior consent from the distributor or manufacturer. Ellwood Epps has agreements in place with distributors that requires certain steps to be followed in the case of warrantied items. Those steps have been clearly outlined.

To those of you who claim that we should blindly refund this customer's money or return the firearm from him, perhaps we should reserve judgement until we find out what the root cause of the problem he has experienced truly is. Only then can such a decision be made.

I cannot speak for whomever it was the OP originally spoke to when he called our store to discuss this matter. I can only offer my assistance to determine the best course of action that can be taken from here to find a suitable solution for all parties involved. If that is not a good enough effort or response for some of you, so be it. It is the OP we are dealing with here, not the masses and their opinions or criticisms over this single matter.

Again, I invite the OP to contact me directly so that we can discuss this matter outside of the public forum, and attempt to find a common ground that will resolve the issue.
 
It is often interesting to see what Canadians will tolerate in this regard.

In the US, the expectation is simple: if it doesn't work, replace it at the expense of the supplier.

Canadians often seem willing to accept the concept that a gun which is sold for X dollars can actually cost you X+return shipping+waiting for however long if you get a bad one. Why? If the guy in front of me in line purchases a working Glock for, say, $650 after taxes etc, why should it cost me $650 plus return shipping and wait times?

I can appreciate that sometimes things go unexpectedly awry, and consequently I am prepared to meet a dealer halfway, and wait for however long it takes for me to ship a gun back, and get a new one from them.

But waiting for them to send it back to the manufacturer, and get it back from the manufacturer, and send it to me...no. Pay to ship it to them? No. That is not reasonable in my opinion.

I, as the buyer, don't pick a specific gun. I just say, "send me a Glock 17." It is up to the seller to ensure that the gun they send me is a working Glock 17. If they send me the wrong gun, it's up to them to fix it. If they send me a non-functional gun, that's up to them as well. If they send me a fake christmas tree instead of a gun...again...these are issues the seller is having. I can't evaluate the gun before it arrives. I therefore cannot be held responsible for issues with the gun.

Imagine for a moment you bought a Norinco 1911 from a dealer. You give them your info and wait. Your credit card gets charged $400. Then, two weeks later, a Sig X5 shows up at your house. They got orders mixed up and transferred an X5 to you and someone else got your Norinco.

If you decided to correct this problem, ask yourself if they would hesitate for one second to get that gun transferred back in to their name, and send you a Norinco 1911 instead?

If they make a mistake, or whatever happens, and you don't get a working edition of the gun you ordered, as far as I'm concerned, you should not be on the hook for extra money or an unreasonable delay as the factory tries to get its #### together. You should be able to send the gun back, and get a working one.

It works that way with guitars, it works that way with blenders, it works that way with office chairs and outside of Canada - even in the ####ed up states with stricter laws than ours - it works that way with guns too.
 
Technically there are no problems to transfer (register with CFO) the gun back and forth between buyer and seller as many times as you like. Policies and agreements among distributor, manufacturer warranty center, and retailer is a different story. But it shouldn't be the buyer's problem
 
A friend of mine brought a used shotgun there, waited to spring for he went to test fire it, well it did not work, so he got hold of epps and was in formed that he had acertin amount of time, to test it and that time had expired, and they said the shot gun had been looked at by their smith and it worked fine, yes sometimes a good store can have problems.
 
majorca said:
HOW DARE YOU WHINE ABOUT A CGN SPONSOR!!!

You have a brand new, unfired gun that does not work. All you have to do is send it out for warranty and wait about 6 months to get it back. What's wrong with that?
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So if you were in the OP's shoes' and this happened to you. Then you would be totally ok with this? I highly doubt it.
 
Harrier .45 said:
If some other company has made the decision to exchange a firearm on their own, that is their prerogative. We are uncertain how they negotiate the reinstatement of a warranty on an item that has already been sold, without prior consent from the distributor or manufacturer. Ellwood Epps has agreements in place with distributors that requires certain steps to be followed in the case of warrantied items. Those steps have been clearly outlined.
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I guess it comes down too the business losing a little money to make a customer happy or the business saying "tough s**t" as in this case

Im not sure how you do it. Frankly dont care. Maybe you fix it and sell it as a demo and eat the cost to ensure the customer is happy.

I could call the local dealer that did that for me and let you know so we can get the OP taken care of.

I will not continue to buy from EPP's because of this. This is crap
 
I realize that in this hobby we come from many different religous, ethnic, professional and educational backgrounds. I was wrong to assume that my obvious sarcasm was obviously not obvious to some. I apologize if you were in any way offended by my post.

Sarcasm defined : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual ( this was not directed at the Original Poster)

Majorca
 
twistedbrilliance said:
Guns being a final sale is a regular thing. (maybe when the registry is canned that will change).
So as far as having to send it to the repair depot that is normal. They should cover your cost to send it back to them and mail it back to you no charge though.
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Not likely to change. I raised hell over a defective gun I bought new as well. It was explained to me that it was a liability issue.
"What if you bought a gun, committed a crime with it then shipped it back to the store for an exchange? The police couldn't do a thing because the gun that did the crime is gone back to the manufacturer to probably be destroyed."
At least that's the load of crap I was spoon fed by Epps.
Funny thing was I phoned REMINGTON with the warranty card I got with my new gun. They were going to send me a postage payed package to send it to them and exchange it for a new one....until I got to giving them my address, "Oh you live in Canada, sorry"....phoned Epps said hey that semi auto I just bought has a rusted out barrel! Wtf? They said "bring it back,could take up to 2 months to look at it, could take upto 6months if a barrel has to come from Remington, then another 2 months to assemble." That's when I said I wanted an exchange and was fed BS.
The last gun I bought I went over it with a magnifying glass, Nope, this has a dent in the stock. Bring me another one, Nope this has a damaged crown, Nope this ones missing bluing, Nope this ones rusty in the bore LoL fooled me once! I went through 5 boxes before I took home my 870.
 
Epps

I just received a phone call from Kevin at Epps -- basically repeated their policy as stated above but is going to talk to his boss when he gets back after the weekend. I informed him that I had sent the gun to the warranty depot and that I was disappointed in the way/attitude I was handled when I called them with my problem. I have been in business for most of my working life and have different view of customer service and yes sometimes as a retailer, I had to "bite the bullet" in order to make the customer happy.
Thanks for calling me Kevin -- appreciated!
 
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