Empty hole/Important hole?

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shawn said:
Sorry dude but you are wrong. The gunsmiths in this thread and Springfield Armory say otherwise, read post#34

Shawn
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I do not accept that. Did you even read what I wrote? I'm certainly open to being wrong, but either explain why or GTFO. Thanks :) Drive-by posting that someone is wrong contributes nothing to the conversation we're trying to have.

I've read the previous posts and all SA Customer Service Rep said was they wouldn't recommend it. I'm sure if you asked them their opinion on installing aftermarket accessories or stocks they would tell you not to modify your rifle in any way, for liability reasons. Also, being a "gunsmith" does not preclude someone from being wrong or misinformed. I'm still waiting for them address my points.

P. S.

I could be mistaken, as I don't own these items, but from what I've gathered, many McMillan M14 stocks do not have a vent hole, nor do the Promag M14 Archangels. I guess they must be wrong too? Hmmm.
 
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superfluid said:
I do not accept that. Did you even read what I wrote? I'm certainly open to being wrong, but either explain why or GTFO. Thanks :) Drive-by posting that someone is wrong contributes nothing to the conversation we're trying to have.

I've read the previous posts and all SA Customer Service Rep said was they wouldn't recommend it. I'm sure if you asked them their opinion on installing aftermarket accessories or stocks they would tell you not to modify your rifle in any way, for liability reasons. Also, being a "gunsmith" does not preclude someone from being wrong or misinformed. I'm still waiting for them address my points.

P. S.

I could be mistaken, as I don't own these items, but from what I've gathered, many McMillan M14 stocks do not have a vent hole, nor do the Promag M14 Archangels. I guess they must be wrong too? Hmmm.
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Yeah I did read what you wrote.

And your are still wrong.

I don't need to explain anything as Springfield armoury (PS they make the thing you don't own) and the gunsmiths that have posted in this thread explained it. And I know for a fact that one of the gunsmiths that posted has more time fixing and understanding the platform that all the people that have posted in this thread have shooting them, combined.

Sorry but I will take their word about the issue over yours, especially considering that you don't even own one. Yet have decided that you know more than the people that make them and the gunsmiths that specialize in them.

So GTFO thanks :rolleyes:

Shawn
 
shawn said:
Yeah I did read what you wrote.

And your are still wrong.

I don't need to explain anything as Springfield armoury (PS they make the thing you don't own) and the gunsmiths that have posted in this thread explained it. And I know for a fact that one of the gunsmiths that posted has more time fixing and understanding the platform that all the people that have posted in this thread have shooting them, combined.

Sorry but I will take their word about the issue over yours, especially considering that you don't even own one. Yet have decided that you know more than the people that make them and the gunsmiths that specialize in them.

So GTFO thanks :rolleyes:

Shawn
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You either didn't read what I wrote or chose to willfully ignore it. I'm still waiting to be proven wrong.

As a side note, I do not know where you got the idea I do not own any M14's, I own two in fact. I just said I do not own a McMillan or Promag stock.

If you insist on only taking advice from recognized authorities, this is from "M14 Rifle History and Development" by Lee Emerson (page 455), one of the canonical books on the subject.

The 5/16 " diameter drain (not vent) hole behind the stock ferrule is an acceptable location to mount a bipod. According to M14 gunsmith Ted Brown [minor spelling and punctuation errors corrected]:

Actually, the hole is not meant to bleed off gas from the gas cylinder. All of the gas is blown back on to the stock and vents between the stock and hand guard.
The hole is primarily designed to drain water from the stock. Of course, it comes out everywhere else too. The hole is a reasonably good place to mount a Harris bipod. One must keep in mind that it is not the strongest part of the stock, but it does work.
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So, all the gas that does manage to leak around the gas piston into the stock will be vacated through the stock and handguard with or without the drain hole. But please, let's argue about it some more. :stirthepot2:
 
Travis Bickle said:
Here it is, a reply straight from Springfield Arms regarding the stock hole
I own a Norinco M14 but they don't have to know that :D:


Hi ###,

Thank you for your email. You are correct that is the weep hole and it is used for drainage of water and venting gas. I would not recommend blocking that hole. Thank you for choosing Springfield Inc.



Have a nice day!

Sarah

Customer Service

Springfield Armory

800-680-6866


From: ###x [mailto:###xx@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 9:10 AM
To: Sarah Woods
Subject: Sales Email - Sent: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 22:04:31 -0400 - M1A Stock?



Hello! I own a springfield M1A from your company. Probably my favourite rifle of all the ones I own. I have a question though, Regarding the small hole forward of the front sling swivel mount in the bottom foreend of the stock, what is the purpose of this hole? I have been told it is for venting gas and for drainage of water should the rifle be used in wet conditions. Is this correct? I ask because I was planning on mounting a bipod using this hole vice removing the sling swivel. Any clarification as to the specific purpose of this hole in the stock and wether it is recomended a good idea as to plug it would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work guys! Cheers! -###

Now on with the comments that Springfield Arms doesn't know what they're talking about of course........
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Sarah sounds hot.
 
superfluid said:
You either didn't read what I wrote or chose to willfully ignore it. I'm still waiting to be proven wrong.

As a side note, I do not know where you got the idea I do not own any M14's, I own two in fact. I just said I do not own a McMillan or Promag stock.
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You are right I mis read you to say you did not own an M14, not that you did not own McMillan or Promag.

superfluid said:
If you insist on only taking advice from recognized authorities, this is from "M14 Rifle History and Development" by Lee Emerson (page 455), one of the canonical books on the subject.



So, all the gas that does manage to leak around the gas piston into the stock will be vacated through the stock and handguard with or without the drain hole. But please, let's argue about it some more. :stirthepot2:
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Yep that is in there, but its a quote from Ted brown, so now all you have is some gunsmiths saying don't do it and some say to do it.

Bottom line is Springfield Armoury says don't do it.

Shawn
 
phoenix_rising said:
Vent%20hole.jpg
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So this picture is false???
Laugh2
I guess draining excess gas is a play on words. Hey superfluid :p
 
shawn said:
You are right I mis read you to say you did not own an M14, not that you did not own McMillan or Promag.



Yep that is in there, but its a quote from Ted brown, so now all you have is some gunsmiths saying don't do it and some say to do it.

Bottom line is Springfield Armoury says don't do it.

Shawn
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With all due respect, calling Lee Emerson and Ted Brown, globally recognized, published authorities on the subject of M14's just "gunsmiths" is like saying Einstein was just a scientist.
 
Excerpted from Springfield Armory Research and Engineering. "Engineering Development and Operational Characteristics of Rifle, 7.62mm, M14E2." Springfield, MA: December 18, 1963. - Page 12:

The six mounting holes in the bottom of the stock provide five
inches of longitudinal adjustment for the handgrip. The four holes
which are not used are plugged with rubber grommets to prevent foreign
matter from entering the action. The mounting screws are used with two
washers, one is a lock washer and the other is a plain washer which
provides a bearing surface between the wood and the lock washer. The
forwardmost hole in the stock is the water drain hole and is not used
for adjustment of the handgrip (Photograph 1170).
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Oh and, by the way, that's the original Springfiend Government Armory. You may have heard of them. They developed and manufactured the M14, which "Springfield Armory, Inc." (no relatation, different company which uses the name under license) now produces the civilian version of (the M1A).
 
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WWIII said:
Is this venting through the drain/vent hole in the stock or the bottom vent hole in the gas cylinder?

Re:http://m14forum.com/m14/74381-help-hole-stock.html
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Look at the replies on that page! As is stated on that forum post, it is being vented from the gas system, forward of the stock. Look how far forward the point of ejection of the gas jet is. The drain hole is situated only a couple of inches forward of the sling loop, where the jet is definitely not coming out of.

Anyone that thinks that hot, pressurized, gas which happens to leak around the gas piston is going to be "redirected" downwards magically, has no understanding of simple fluid dynamics. The rifle stock is a completely hollow cavity, with gaps around the hand-guard, which is not perfectly sealed against the receiver. It defies logic.

If you STILL don't believe me, here's an experiment you can do right now. Pop off the gas plug from your M14. Remove the piston. You should now have a clear channel into the stock of your rifle. Put one hand just under the drain hole. Blow air into the opening where the gas plug used to be. Do you feel how much of it is being "vented" down the hole, particularly with anywhere near the forcefulness of the incoming blast? Now imagine that any gas which happens to escape around the mostly air-tight piston is many orders of magnitude less than that.

Any fouling within the stock is likely the result of these microscopic leaks around the piston in addition to the carbon particles being scraped off the faces of the piston and gas system as the piston strokes in and out of the the gas system. In other words, it's not gas being "vented" or lack thereof. The drain hole will do absolutely nothing about this.

See this post on m14forum regarding fouling

There are grooves around the surface of the head of the piston that were put there deliberately. They are meant as a “self cleaning” feature over a smooth surface that was found on the pistons of the M1 Carbine. After the surface of the head was hardened and ground, the edges of these grooves were left sharp so they would scrape carbon fouling loose as the piston operated. THAT’S part of the reason why you should not polish the piston heads because you would dull those sharps surfaces and cause them not to scrape carbon as well. This also does not mean they were meant to keep you from having to clean the gas piston surface. It does mean it was intended to allow the rifle to be fired in prolonged battle conditions without having the piston seize up and stopping the rifle from operating.
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Where do you figure this fouling ends up?

There are two reasons not plug the hole:

1) Using it for a bipod. The hole was not designed for this, as the stock material around the opening may not be structurally strong enough to support the stress.

2) To drain water from the stock.

Ah, found the video you were talking about. It's hard to tell due to the quality and speed of the video, but I assure you the gas is coming from the lower gas port. I will find a better video.
 
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WWIII said:
Just looked at the video on page 3 and it sure looks like a lot of gas being vented through the drain/vent hole in the stock.
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As someone said in reference to that image:

I'd say brycom1 is right. First, while the angle of that remarkable picture makes it difficult to tell, it looks like the gas is venting a bit forward of the stock.
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Look at this video, it should be completely obvious, full screen it if you must:

[youtube]7GiZ9pZwVsc&start=20[/youtube]
 
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Are we still rambling on about the stupid hole in the stock?

Don't put a bipod stud in there.... It's not good, it's a weak mounting point, don't be a bubba , get one of the pre existing proven bipod mounts that replace the sling plate and carry on ;)

Who cares what comes out the hole, it's there, and it's not for a bipod.

Why??? Cause some guy on the internet with too much time on his hands has told you so :rockOn:
 
While I partially agree with you, how can you, as a gunsmith, say who cares what comes out of the hole (particularly when you said previously that it was for venting gas). That's like a mechanic saying who cares what comes out of the exhaust pipe of a car. This is a battle rifle discussion forum, and we're discussing a very fundamental part of how an M14 works. f:P:

It matters because a large percentage of the population is clearly confused about the rifle's operation. I'd say clearing up those misconceptions is very important. The sooner the matter is laid to rest the sooner this thread can die.
 
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Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but I put the matter to rest 2500 rounds ago when I popped a bi-pod stud into that hole. Poly stock, no complaints from the rifle, probably would not do it with wood.
 
Superfluid. First, I am not a "gunsmith" , I specialize in the M14/M1A , perhaps a better term would be an M1A riflesmith. As such I witness cause and effect of mods and upgrades, and failures of such.
Try this, plug that hole, then go shoot 500 rounds.
Then take a rag and whipe inside your stock. It will be black.
Now go unplug the hole and repeat. Save the first rag and compare to the new on from the unplugged stock.
You will see a dramatic difference as have I.
So.... Regardless of videos or long drawn out technical data, plugging the hole is bad.
The excess gasses have no way to vent other than around the handguard. The hole permits airflow thru the stock plain and simple. Which aids in disapating hot gasses which do indeed blow by the piston into your stock.
The hole is also there should you find a need to submerge your rifle in water ;) and have no doubt this was it's original design
What I think is silly though is how far the thread has gone LOL I think folks get the point
 
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