End User issues with Short Barrels etc. (split)

cancer said:
Aww, talk about a look but don't touch situation for us "civilian end-users"!! :(
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If it were up to me we'd be advertising full autos in the EE... But it ain't! :(

If anyone is looking for a 1/7, the G3 16" upper with the 12" rail in the pic is for sale. Same specs.
 
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dangertree said:
LOL ;) There's a bit to it, stamping of forms by the unit, etc. Serving members only I'm afraid.

I don't qualify either, FWIW. :(
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The way things are going with the god damn "reasonable accomodation" here is Kebeckistan, I'm about to start a religion where the FA ar-15 shorty is a religious symbol that must be carried at all time.... Think we could get that one pass the idiots of parlement. we could call it : The churth of reason.

Well I guess it's about time I hit the lathe and start cutting the 16 incher's down a bit
 
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the end-user certificate say who the end user is. if you buy it, then you are the end-user and the certificate is now false.

no canadian laws, but if/when the US finds out, thats one more nail in the the "can't have these anymore" coffin. remember, all the US has to do is say, no more exports, and it's all over. we might as well play with-in their rules.
 
P0WERWAGON said:
the end-user certificate say who the end user is. if you buy it, then you are the end-user and the certificate is now false.

no canadian laws, but if/when the US finds out, thats one more nail in the the "can't have these anymore" coffin. remember, all the US has to do is say, no more exports, and it's all over. we might as well play with-in their rules.
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So these end-user certs last the lifetime of the firearm?
 
nemesys said:
So these end-user certs last the lifetime of the firearm?
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YES, in theory to sell the firearm one is supposed to apply. Like FMS equipment you need to apply to the US Gov't to sell it.

However as we see in the US with the Hk416 issue -- the upper is not a controlled part (once its imported) and a number of entities have been destroying the lowers and selling the uppers...

*I'm not advocating this BTW - just pointing out my observations on the issue.
 
dangertree said:
Thread hijack! :runaway:
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Sorry Walt. I'll go thru an split this bit off.


In answer to the other question.

Keep in mind in Canada and the U.S. of A. the firearm is the lower. When a unit or agency orders it - that is the item that is recorded with the Federal Gov't(s).
In some other countries it is the barrel (not the receiver).

So as a result when say a unit or agency buys 1,500 Hk416's - the lower is what is the item that is controlled.
If some of the lowers are destroyed and the entity recoups the funds - then there is a zero sum balance.

Of course the upper then walks into the civilian market - and someone or a unit fund makes whatever the difference in the sale of the upper to the market - to what the unit paid for it.

And as far as the ATF (or CFC) is concerned the item is gone.

Several people have gotten a handsome profit off this - and some of the smaller departments have been able to equip their officers with a bunch of new kit they otherwise could not fund.

However it is illegal - as one has fraudelently filled out the end user. Some people in positions of authority in two entities that I am aware have lost their jobs (and pensions) over this.

So while it seems minor (to me at least, but then I never was the pillar of ethics ;)) it is a big deal and it has some very large consequences.

- the same goes for getting "connected" friends to fill out end users for NV or whatever.
 
There is a slight bit more to this than is being stated...

In order to apply for the DSP-5 from US State Department the exporter must supply a Purchase Order from the Agency/Department buying the goods, a DSP-83 End-User statement signed by the Agency/Department certifying they are the final end-user and that they will not re-sell, tranship or otherwise dispose of the items without first obtaining approval from US State Department and lastly an IIC (International Import Certificate) from DFAIT in Ottawa wherein the Agency/Department is listed as the End-User and states that the goods are for Police/Government use as opposed to "personal use" or "commercial resale" which are the other typical options for items being imported for civilian market.

If the documents are falsified, it isn't just a "US issue" in respect of the DSP-83, it's also a matter of falsifying the department Purchase Order and the IIC application to Ottawa. This can result in serious charges right here in Canada.

There doesn't seem to be much "issue" with a department that legitimately buys firearms for their own use, uses them for a number of years and then trades them in on replacement kit. Technically they would still need US State Department approval to dispose of the items but I've not heard of State making a big issue over this in legitimate cases.

But falsely issuing these documents with the up front, clear intention of turning around right away and selling/trading the merchandise is definitely a serious offense in both the US and Canada. It's fraud.

Mark
 
This isn't to much difference from buying m1a and ar15 parts from the usa. you are not allowed to "sell the parts or build and sell a complete gun" overseas without the ok from the dept of state.
 
Question. He was saying if you are LE or mil they can see what they can do for you... does this mean it is for his own personal use?
 
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