There is obviously a high demand for original, full wood Lee Enfields. How did Canada end up sporterizing most of them? Truly a dark period in Canadian history. I cry to think about what we could have as a supply of these Canadian icons in original condition.
Enfield Abomination
- Thread starter the knob
- Start date
History in general seems to be shunned by youth today. I think grade 10 history was one of the most depressing things I did in high school, it was extremely basic and still most of the class was clueless, half of them never even heard of major characters like Stalin or Churchill they're just stuck in their own world of text messaging and TV. I am quite young myself but I don't really like my own generation in general.
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
When I was a kid they used to sell sporterized No.4's at Kmart for $29.95
Thing is.. these rifles really were just seen as simple implements of war.
If you could get 'em cheap after the war to use for knockin' down moose why not..?
Me thinks the generation that actually had to use 'em for their intended purpose would be the last to want to keep 'em in their original condition.
Lighten 'em up.. trick 'em out and go get some moose meat... Yum.
The only ones who seem to have any nostalga for the originals are those who weren't even born yet when all an Enfield was meant for was to kill the Hun.
That said... I remember in '76-'77 a surplus store at Queen and bathurst (King Sol's) had barrels of 'em on the sidewalk for $29.99 each and a sign that read "Buy now before the new gun law" *
*C-51 was passed in '77.. The F.A.C
- Location
- Prince George B.C
I'm not going to lie...I don't like it one bit. The problem is it`s hard to ask everyone to be a collector or have an appreciation for fine engineering. Case in point are classic cars. Bubba city........But if I were to ask you to keep your dodge Neon in pristine condition you would tell me to grow tits. Hindsight indeed
Its nice to know I'm not the only one. I had the same experience going through the history classes at my school; many of my fellow students either did not share the same passion as I did or simply did not care. The situation is worsened to an absolute low when the teacher is not even motivated to teach the subject material.
I have tried to change their mind on the subject by relating it to their own experiences but some of my fellow students were quite stubborn. I finally settled on letting them live in ignorance.
As for the sporterized Enfields, I can only say that in the 1950s and 1960s, SMLEs and No 4s must have been more common than dirt. When you look at a custom sporting rifle today (have a look at the new Mausers model 03s selling for $3k a piece and up depending on accessories for example), it just seems logical to take an old military rifle that was proofed to be accurate and rugged enough for the field and make it appropriate for hunting or target shooting.
I'm not endorsing bubba in anyway, mind you, as I have seen the end result of some German rifles that traveled down that path. One, a very early pre-war Gewehr 98, I am restoring from a very rough ride with her previous owner. It will be a rough road back to recovery and I know there will be no real collector value but sometimes you need little projects like this to really get your passion for history going. It just makes you think: What action could this rifle have seen ? Who would have held it ? Did the rifle kill anyone in anger or out of duty ? The list goes on...
Presently, I am a proud owner of an SMLE Mark III , dated 1916. By the looks of the markings (thank you fellow CGNers that helped me with markings identification), she was in Britain for the whole of her service life. She didn't see Canadian service by the looks of it but she is still in full military configuration. Taking her apart, no-one has taken anything apart since she was sold out of military service. Just makes you wonder what this rifle has been doing for the past 60 years in the civilian market, who owned her...etc. I am thankful bubba did not touch her.
In 30 years, we'll be saying the same thing about all the Bubba'd SKSes too.
When milsurps are plentiful and cheap, they get Bubba'd. It's a fact of life - one which is the bane of collectors everywhere.
-M
07blackwater
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Port Coquitlam, BC
Can you still get old original wood for these things? I think my dad still has one left in his safe.
I'll be the first guy to try and convince anyone to leave an issue rifle in its original condition ,but you have to take into account that in the 50's and 60's there were literally thousands of these rifles around and unfortunately familiarity breeds contempt , It didn't really occur to many people that they'd ever run out .Another way to look at it is that not all of these guns are bubba's but another piece of canadian firearms history. I still have my first rifle, a Parker Hale standard sporter No. 4 that my dad bought back in the 60's for about 30 to 40 bucks. As I remember alot of us started out our hunting careers with very similiar rifles. When I take the old girl hunting every now and then I just have to look at it and 40 some years of hunting memorys come back to me , and I doubt I'm the only one who feels the same.I guess what I'm trying to say is something that was shared by thousands of shooters and hunters across this country and a few generations too , should at least be remembered as a historicaly significant part of traditional firearms use in canada.Whatever your opinion , I wouldn't trade my old 303 for anything and I dont think I'm alone
Same way we didn't sporterize the C1 rifle. If you give them to civilians, the civilians will end up using them.
- Location
- Scarborough, ON
VZ58s are also military surplus rifles and we are sure bubba-ing those to hell and back. Even though they are not in exactly "as-issued" condition, the restricted models are pretty darn close.
Yup, very true.
Check the EE and Most gun stores and you will see it is already happening.
Your rifle, do what you want. A cheap, one of a million type surplus & no one is going to get too upset (we'll ride you here though!). It's the not knowing that you have a rarity, & you go & butcher it; turning it into a P.O.S. Leaving it worthless. Those are the kickers for me & fortunately you don't see that as often as in the past.
With military pieces in quantity, it's inevitable that some are going to get modified. Again if someone wants to turn a $2000 rifle into a $50 rifle that's their problem.
With military pieces in quantity, it's inevitable that some are going to get modified. Again if someone wants to turn a $2000 rifle into a $50 rifle that's their problem.
I disagree. If they weren't as rare as they are now, who'd collect them.
They'd still be cheap.
Case in point; original HotWheels redlines.
How many were kept inside the package?
Would they still be worth as much if most of them were?
I have several No1's with volley sights still attached.
Rare? Yup!
Pricey? Yup!
Going up in value, I hope so. They aren't making them anymore.
I think Dook is right, if they weren't mutilated by the thousands they wouldn't be so collectable now. Back in the fifties and sixties a lot of guys would have had to save for a long time to buy a new hunting rifle if it weren't for sported Lee-Enfields. Cheap to buy, rugged,reliable and very effective on game.
at least for the time being these are still being new manufactured, wouldn't want to tamper with one with a pre-2000 datestamp though.
Sporterized rifles
Well, guys, here is some first hand experience. Since I am 69 years old, and grew up during the heydays of surplus firearms, I will make a few observations.
You could buy your choice of Lee Enfield No.1 Mk. III rifles for $9.95, with a No. 4 rifle costing $14.95. A surplus store had Martini Cadet rifles for $9.95, and you could shoot .23 S&W Long ammo in them. A No.4 Sniper Rifle, with scope, scope tin, wooden case but without the observing telescope was $49.95. No.1, Mark V trials rifles were available for $29.95, and No.1 Mk VI rifles were $24.95.
A complete cased Lewis gun, 3 drums, loader, spare barrel and parts, with anti-aircraft sights was surplused by Ireland, and cost me $65. An unfired 1928 Savage made Thompson sub-machine gun cost me $135 with a 50 round drum, and a dozen 20 round magazines. Johnson 30-06 rifles were $35 and 6.5 Greek Mannlichers were less than $10.
Wars cost money, and England had lots of surplus military equipment that could be sold. Not only guns, but things like aircraft. A used car dealer bought several, including a Spitfire for $1500. Today, a Spitfire in flying condition would set you back over a million dollars.
There were not as many collectors then, too. We didn't have the Internet, and all the interest in firearms that we have today. Now, we have a lot more collectors and information, and the scarcity of good original examples along with the prices goes up each year. There is more demand for collector's rifles these days.
Those prices sound really cheap today, but one thing we have to remember is inflation. Gasoline cost 22 cents per GALLON in the late 1950s. Wages ran 75 cents to $1.00 an hour. I washed cars after school for two months to earn $65 to buy enought Av-gas so I could fly that Spitfire for one hour! Was it worth it. Hell, yes!
But, what would $29.95 of 1955 vintage be equivalent to today? Then, it was almost a week's wages!
Leavens Brothers in Toronto would sell you a ex-RCAF Vampire Jet for $1000. In the late 60s, De Haviland Chipmunk trainers were $750. But, who thought of keeping the family 57 Chevy pristine? How about the early Mustangs, and Corvettes, and 55 or 56 Thunderbirds? Many thousands were built, and where are they all now, and look at the prices they command.
The SKS rifles today are the Lee Enfields of bygone days. Look at the posts, and see how many people are putting on scope mounts, changing the stocks, and doing all kinds of things with them.
I lived in some of the best times that Canada has ever seen, but we will never see those times again. A 12 year old kid could clamp an old Cooey single shot rifle onto the handlebars of his bike, and pedal around Southern Ontario shooting Woodchucks. And no one thought very much about it then.....but just try it now. You will probably get acquainted to the local SWAT team, lots of police cars, and maybe a helicopter or two, VERY FAST.
.
Well, guys, here is some first hand experience. Since I am 69 years old, and grew up during the heydays of surplus firearms, I will make a few observations.
You could buy your choice of Lee Enfield No.1 Mk. III rifles for $9.95, with a No. 4 rifle costing $14.95. A surplus store had Martini Cadet rifles for $9.95, and you could shoot .23 S&W Long ammo in them. A No.4 Sniper Rifle, with scope, scope tin, wooden case but without the observing telescope was $49.95. No.1, Mark V trials rifles were available for $29.95, and No.1 Mk VI rifles were $24.95.
A complete cased Lewis gun, 3 drums, loader, spare barrel and parts, with anti-aircraft sights was surplused by Ireland, and cost me $65. An unfired 1928 Savage made Thompson sub-machine gun cost me $135 with a 50 round drum, and a dozen 20 round magazines. Johnson 30-06 rifles were $35 and 6.5 Greek Mannlichers were less than $10.
Wars cost money, and England had lots of surplus military equipment that could be sold. Not only guns, but things like aircraft. A used car dealer bought several, including a Spitfire for $1500. Today, a Spitfire in flying condition would set you back over a million dollars.
There were not as many collectors then, too. We didn't have the Internet, and all the interest in firearms that we have today. Now, we have a lot more collectors and information, and the scarcity of good original examples along with the prices goes up each year. There is more demand for collector's rifles these days.
Those prices sound really cheap today, but one thing we have to remember is inflation. Gasoline cost 22 cents per GALLON in the late 1950s. Wages ran 75 cents to $1.00 an hour. I washed cars after school for two months to earn $65 to buy enought Av-gas so I could fly that Spitfire for one hour! Was it worth it. Hell, yes!
But, what would $29.95 of 1955 vintage be equivalent to today? Then, it was almost a week's wages!
Leavens Brothers in Toronto would sell you a ex-RCAF Vampire Jet for $1000. In the late 60s, De Haviland Chipmunk trainers were $750. But, who thought of keeping the family 57 Chevy pristine? How about the early Mustangs, and Corvettes, and 55 or 56 Thunderbirds? Many thousands were built, and where are they all now, and look at the prices they command.
The SKS rifles today are the Lee Enfields of bygone days. Look at the posts, and see how many people are putting on scope mounts, changing the stocks, and doing all kinds of things with them.
I lived in some of the best times that Canada has ever seen, but we will never see those times again. A 12 year old kid could clamp an old Cooey single shot rifle onto the handlebars of his bike, and pedal around Southern Ontario shooting Woodchucks. And no one thought very much about it then.....but just try it now. You will probably get acquainted to the local SWAT team, lots of police cars, and maybe a helicopter or two, VERY FAST.
.
I'd love to pick up an original Enfield, but I've pretty much decided that with my student budget its not going to happen. What I would like to do though is find a one that was bubba'd and restore it back to its former glory.
Just so long as most of the metal parts arn't going to burst into red dust if I blow on it too hard.
Just so long as most of the metal parts arn't going to burst into red dust if I blow on it too hard.
