Enfield Martini-Henry sees the light of day after decades *pic heavy*

A

AnotherCanuck

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In the 50's my grandfather received this rifle as repayment of a favor. It's moved all around Victoria, though never used to the best of my knowledge. The action is smooth and as far as I can see the rifling looks clean and actually reasonably pit free and bright.

I can just make out the crown with the following below

ENFIELD
1887 (??)
IV

Can you help me find out any more information on this rifle? My father and I are very curious!

I've taken a plethora of photos, too many to post here - link contains the whole set.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86241760@N06/sets/72157631329329188

Big thank you to Smellie who pointed out what to look for and what it ment!

Couple of teasers

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You and your dad need to learn to load a few rounds for that gun and go shoot it. The guns are not worth a mint, and you'l probably enjoy it more if you clean the 1/8th inch of crud that is covering that entire gun off.

Shooting those are a very enjoyable experience.

Bout as much fun you will have with your pants on.
 
ou'l probably enjoy it more if you clean the 1/8th inch of crud that is covering that entire gun off.
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STOPPPPPPPPPPPP before you get the brake cleaner and stainless steel wool out do some careful and patient research. You might want to ever so lightly clean it BUT you do not want to make it a major project. Nothing can destroy the value ($ and aesthetic) of a historic arm faster then a father/son team newly enamoured with a gun.

She is a beauty your grandpa got something of value for his favor,
 
Nice find! (sort of ;)) I'm sure other members are more knowledgable than I about the details, but as said it is a Mark IV which were all long lever. This was the last model of Martini-Henry rifles. It looks completely correct and all there to me, other than appearing to have been well used, but I wonder why the maker's cartouche is missing on the buttstock. They aren't marked deep so I guess it could have worn off?

It doesn't look like one of the International imported ones to me... I thought those were all Nepal cache rifles similar to the current IMA/AC ones? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) There are no Nepalese characters on this gun.

Hopefully someone will be able to comment on the significance of the markings and numbers on the stock and receiver top.
 
david doyle said:
STOPPPPPPPPPPPP before you get the brake cleaner and stainless steel wool out do some careful and patient research. You might want to ever so lightly clean it BUT you do not want to make it a major project. Nothing can destroy the value ($ and aesthetic) of a historic arm faster then a father/son team newly enamoured with a gun.

She is a beauty your grandpa got something of value for his favor,
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Did they pry this gun out of Rudyard Kipplings coffin or something? Maybe if it was a westley richards I would understand. If it is, disregard everything I said about cleaning it, I was wrong.

As far as value, your going to have a hard time make a Holland and Holland or a Farquharson out of a military martini. Even the martini carbines bring in a few bucks more. Educate me here, what would make a well used martini henry rifle a valuable gun?, so I know what to look for next time.
 
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You have a mk IV Martini-Henry rifle manufactured at the Enfield plant in 1887, it is not a Martiini Enfield. Martini-Henrys are 577/450 cal. Martini-Enfields and Martini-Metfords are .303. Martini Enfields have typical squared lands and grooves, Metford rifling however is simply oblong without distinct lands and grooves.
 
Did they pry this gun out of Rudyard Kipplings coffin or something? Maybe if it was a westley richards I would understand. If it is, disregard everything I said about cleaning it, I was wrong.

As far as value, your going to have a hard time make a Holland and Holland or a Farquharson out of a military martini. Even the martini carbines bring in a few bucks more. Educate me here, what would make a well used martini henry rifle a valuable gun?, so I know what to look for next time.
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I did not say don't clean it. I issued caution against stripping off finnish and patina and flying into a job thinking that the right thing to do is make it newer looking. Part of that value is $ and a larger part is how this owner will feel about the gun in a decade or two. Grandpa kept the bore prisitne and the exterior corrision at bay so how could anything the grandson do be better???. No one wants a scrubbed gun. Mine was a very valid warning, you wont find sympathy in this forum for your " who cares it aint a Richards it aint worth treating with respect " attitude.

I stand by my caution and if the OP is new to old guns he should indeed mire himself in research and move with deliberation and care with regards to your instruction to:
clean the 1/8th inch of crud that is covering that entire gun off.
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Does anyone out there disapree that there are more wrong ways then right ways to clean up an old gun? In fact does anyone disagree that the current cosmoline (crud) is likely contributung to the family hierlooms preservation?

Unless the OP has a kindly old uncle with a stash of loaded ammo he aint gonna be shooting too awful much in the near future so there is little if any immediate incentive to do anything beyond garnering the enjoyment he and his dad are already getting from it.

BTW OP you can legally display that rifle as it is an antique, might look pretty swell on the wall next to Grandpa's pic, I assume since he took a rifle on trade he must a been a pretty cool guy.
 
I don't recommend going at the old rifle with a wire wheel on a disc grinder but a good soaking of the steel with oil and rubbing the crap off with some oil soaked 000 bronze wool will not hurt the value in the least. And the look of the rifle will be improved greatly. The wood should not be touched with anything abrasive. Many times simply wiping the stocks down with a turpentine soaked rag and then wiping with clean rags until they come away clean is all that is required.
 
cyclone said:
I'm going to sound so silly...:redface:...but doesn't the picture show a "III" ?....:confused:
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That most certainly is a III on the fore end retaining hook which is the MKIII pattern fitted to all MkIV M-Hs.
The Mark IV mark on the receiver was scrubbed when these arms were refurbed in India.
 
green said:
That most certainly is a III on the fore end retaining hook which is the MKIII pattern fitted to all MkIV M-Hs.
The Mark IV mark on the receiver was scrubbed when these arms were refurbed in India.
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Thanks indeed !......:wave:


So :yingyang: , short of looking at the rifling ;) , is there any other way of differentiating between a Martini-Metford and a Martini-Enfield (sorry for the off-topic diversion :redface: ) ?.....:D
 
david doyle said:
Does anyone out there disagree that there are more wrong ways then right ways to clean up an old gun?
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No disagreement here... it'd be a shame to over-clean an antique so go slowly. The "patina" is part of the charm! :D

cyclone said:
Thanks indeed !......:wave:


So :yingyang: , short of looking at the rifling ;) , is there any other way of differentiating between a Martini-Metford and a Martini-Enfield (sorry for the off-topic diversion :redface: ) ?.....:D
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Gary D mentioned the rifling above, but you don't have a Martini-Enfield or a Martini-Metford as those are both .303 caliber. Those I believe usually have an additional stamp on the receiver (on the left side I think) that say "M-E" for Enfield pattern or "M-M" for Metford pattern and also state ".303". What you have is a .577/450 caliber Martini-Henry that is manufactured by Enfield (as opposed to being made by BSA or LSA, etc etc)

What green said about the scrubbed receiver is probably right, hadn't thought about that. Obliterating the markings after being repaired/refurbed at the arsenal was common practice for some reason...

British parts markings get confusing... the "Mark" number on parts refers to the version of the part itself, not the gun/weapon it's affixed to. So that is the "Mark III" version of that part!
 
OP here is your cleaning prescription:

I don't recommend going at the old rifle with a wire wheel on a disc grinder but a good soaking of the steel with oil and rubbing the crap off with some oil soaked 000 bronze wool will not hurt the value in the least. And the look of the rifle will be improved greatly. The wood should not be touched with anything abrasive. Many times simply wiping the stocks down with a turpentine soaked rag and then wiping with clean rags until they come away clean is all that is required.
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I think we'll keep her as is, there is zero intention of ever selling this classy lady. Some of the patina could have been from a house fire in the 70's, some smoke discoloration or something of the sort. Before the pictures I wiped all the oil off, over time it had become something of a waxy residue that no doubt helped to protect it and I have reapplied oil now. From the texture of the wood on the stock I think someone may have sanded it down eons ago as it's certainly 1/16" smaller than the butt pad - makes me sad!!

Firing it would scare the pants off of me, first round down range would be fired by a lonnnng string :redface:

Thank you all for your replies!

Edit:

If I were foolish enough to fire this, where would one find rounds for it? From the bore and a quick wiki this thing fires thumb sized hunks of lead, holy smokes.
 
david doyle said:
I did not say don't clean it. I issued caution against stripping off finnish and patina and flying into a job thinking that the right thing to do is make it newer looking. Part of that value is $ and a larger part is how this owner will feel about the gun in a decade or two. Grandpa kept the bore prisitne and the exterior corrision at bay so how could anything the grandson do be better???. No one wants a scrubbed gun. Mine was a very valid warning, you wont find sympathy in this forum for your " who cares it aint a Richards it aint worth treating with respect " attitude.

I stand by my caution and if the OP is new to old guns he should indeed mire himself in research and move with deliberation and care with regards to your instruction to:


Does anyone out there disapree that there are more wrong ways then right ways to clean up an old gun? In fact does anyone disagree that the current cosmoline (crud) is likely contributung to the family hierlooms preservation?

Unless the OP has a kindly old uncle with a stash of loaded ammo he aint gonna be shooting too awful much in the near future so there is little if any immediate incentive to do anything beyond garnering the enjoyment he and his dad are already getting from it.

BTW OP you can legally display that rifle as it is an antique, might look pretty swell on the wall next to Grandpa's pic, I assume since he took a rifle on trade he must a been a pretty cool guy.
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Gotcha so its not a valuable gun (as in dollars). Some people watch too much pawn stars or antiques roadshow these days so you never know. Family heirlooms bring back more pleasant memoris when they are shot.He can load his own shells, you dont need a kindly uncle with a stash of factory loads.

Its your gun of course, you can treat a few hundred dollar gun like it came out of the Louvre if you wish. But I'l stand by what I said, load shells and shoot the thing. These guns are heck for stout, and were made into varminters, rechambered to smokeless.

Take it to a smith to see if its safe to do so if you wish.

If I were foolish enough to fire this, where would one find rounds for it? From the bore and a quick wiki this thing fires thumb sized hunks of lead, holy smokes.
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Edited to add: Just read your comment for live rounds. You are going to probably have to reload the shells, its a black powder gun that shoots the black powder cartridge. Theres much info on loading and shooting the martini henry0 on the net. There original factory loads out there for sale (very expensive), but I'l agree with the museum types here in that it would be a crime to shoot them. You will need the reloading tools, a mould (or ready cast bullets) and the reloading dies for your specific cartridge, as well as BLACK powder and empty cases. Squeeze the trigger on one of those rounds and you'l forget how much fun you had seeing it hanging on the wall. You'l have to clean up the bore after shooting the shells, to maintain how nice it is now.


Just so you know............it will kick pretty sternly.
 
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Yes if you're up for reloading (and a bit of a challenge) I would also recommend shooting it. I have a couple M-H's (a MkIV and a MkIII) but am still gathering a lot of stuff to do this. As far as I know you cannot buy loaded ammo for ths gun up here, unless you run across vintage stuff but even those reputedly have major hangfire issues because of their age. Best just put on a shelf and admired. There is a ton of reloading info out on the internet for the 577/450. Check the headspace (easy), slug the bore, start loading. Cast bullets are a problem for me though as I live in an apartment.... Still figuring that one out. :-/
 
If it is a .303, as Gary D. says, then it is not a legal antique. I agree with David Doyle re. being careful on how you clean it. Keep the sand paper off it. There are proper ways to clean it that will not affect the authenticity and originality and history shown it its appearance.
 
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