Enfield sniper
- Thread starter BigDave
- Start date
Very nice. I was a bit sceptical until I read the following:
"Canadian Long Branch rifles closely parallel British production, with some specific deviations and much smaller quantities. Rifles delivered before May 1944 were missing the characteristic ‘T’ stamp on the sidewall. In 1943 Long Branch delivered 71 sniper rifles with Canadian-made Research Enterprises Ltd. (REL) C No.32 MK.1 scopes, possibly in the 34L###x serial number range. These first deliveries were selected from the nearly 230,000 No.4 rifles produced in 1943 (numbered 23L###x to 56L###x). Law’s book suggests four distinct serial number ranges for No.4 Mk1*(T)'s: 1944 production rifles numbered 71L###x with REL C No.32 MK. 1 and 2 scopes; 350 odd 1944 production rifles numbered 74L0001 to 74L0350 with civilian production Lyman Alaskan scopes (bought as a stop gap when REL couldn't deliver fast enough); approximately 84 1944 production rifles numbered 80L8### with the REL C No.67 Mk.I scope; and a final batch of 376 1945 dated 90L8### rifles with REL C No.32 MK.3 scopes."
http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/ri10c.htm
I suspect that this rifle will bring a premium because of the scope's rarity in use on a sniper rifle.
As for value, I just don't know.
"Canadian Long Branch rifles closely parallel British production, with some specific deviations and much smaller quantities. Rifles delivered before May 1944 were missing the characteristic ‘T’ stamp on the sidewall. In 1943 Long Branch delivered 71 sniper rifles with Canadian-made Research Enterprises Ltd. (REL) C No.32 MK.1 scopes, possibly in the 34L###x serial number range. These first deliveries were selected from the nearly 230,000 No.4 rifles produced in 1943 (numbered 23L###x to 56L###x). Law’s book suggests four distinct serial number ranges for No.4 Mk1*(T)'s: 1944 production rifles numbered 71L###x with REL C No.32 MK. 1 and 2 scopes; 350 odd 1944 production rifles numbered 74L0001 to 74L0350 with civilian production Lyman Alaskan scopes (bought as a stop gap when REL couldn't deliver fast enough); approximately 84 1944 production rifles numbered 80L8### with the REL C No.67 Mk.I scope; and a final batch of 376 1945 dated 90L8### rifles with REL C No.32 MK.3 scopes."
http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/ri10c.htm
I suspect that this rifle will bring a premium because of the scope's rarity in use on a sniper rifle.
As for value, I just don't know.
Cool thanks for the info pretty much what i was told when it was given to me yes thats right given this rifle was a gift from my girlfriends father he said dont let it go for less then an xcr lol if you decide to trade it also some more info this rifle hasnt had more then 50 rounds through it.
Dave
Dave
Should you decide to keep it, my humble opinion: Consider yourself the lucky curator of an important artefact. In my opinion, these objects deserve to be treated well, to ensure really long life, given their historical importance.
What a nice rifle!!!
What a nice rifle!!!
I dunno ... the scope box doesn't match the numbers on the gun or the scope ... I say it's all worthless 
I'd be happy to take it off your hands though
/end stupid comments
Very nice piece. I hope you either keep it and treasure it, or find a serious collector that will maintain this firearm, as well as showing it on occasion so this piece of history is not lost in a basement vault somewhere.
I'd be happy to take it off your hands though /end stupid comments
Very nice piece. I hope you either keep it and treasure it, or find a serious collector that will maintain this firearm, as well as showing it on occasion so this piece of history is not lost in a basement vault somewhere.
You should post your photos at Milsurps.com and let Peter Laidler have a look at them and drool on your rare Enfield photos.
You have a very rare Enfield indeed
Chapter 8
"Some 100 of these Lyman Alaskan scopes were fitted to the Canadian No.4 (T) rifles".
You have a very rare Enfield indeed
Chapter 8
"Some 100 of these Lyman Alaskan scopes were fitted to the Canadian No.4 (T) rifles".
Very nice example of a Canadian No4T TP sniper build.
Some things you should check. Is the scope serial number stamped on the top wrist surface of the butt stock? What serial numer is stamped on the left side of the butt socket? This will determine the originally of the components. It's the determining factor in fixing validation.
Just a couple observation from what I can see in your pictures;
1) Scope braket bears serial number 74L0112...it does not match with your case that is marked 74L0157
2) Scope is marked 4396s. I don't see this number just behind the Lyman part number
3) Scope does not match the case as it's marked 4399s
4)Check the forestock, rear sight, inside handguards for the "Maltese" cross markings.
5) Does the scope have the post recticle?
Once these things are determined then a value can be place on it? You can email rgg_7@hotmail.com.
Ron
PS What is a "xcr" ?
Some things you should check. Is the scope serial number stamped on the top wrist surface of the butt stock? What serial numer is stamped on the left side of the butt socket? This will determine the originally of the components. It's the determining factor in fixing validation.
Just a couple observation from what I can see in your pictures;
1) Scope braket bears serial number 74L0112...it does not match with your case that is marked 74L0157
2) Scope is marked 4396s. I don't see this number just behind the Lyman part number
3) Scope does not match the case as it's marked 4399s
4)Check the forestock, rear sight, inside handguards for the "Maltese" cross markings.
5) Does the scope have the post recticle?
Once these things are determined then a value can be place on it? You can email rgg_7@hotmail.com.
Ron
PS What is a "xcr" ?
Yes it's post type reticle and sadly it is mismatched but I am told that it did happen on several rifles some things broke some things didn't what broke was fixed what didn't break was left for sure it was put together from parts the coolest thing is the scope it came with they are rare. Xcr is a robsin arms non restricted rifle.
Dave
Dave
Personally, I'd be a very cautious on paying too high a price for this piece, as in my opinion, there are a number of anomalies ..
I'd like to see more detailed pics of other areas of the rifle, transit chest and scope, plus pay attention to some of the inconsistencies that rgg_7 has already pointed out …
My guess is that elements of it have been assembled from relatively correct components to create a relatively accurate but not "all correct" original condition piece.
I also get a little nervous when I see a piece presented to me by a seller that has a boat load of nice little add-ons such as action covers, pull throughs and cleaning cloths with it, that add to a sense of completeness.
Is the scope serial number stamped on the top of the butt wrist and if so, is the area where it's stamped show original wood wear, or seem flatter? Is there a "C Broad Arrow" with associated inspector's mark number on the scope mount centre, under the rifle serial number on the mating scope mount itself? I don't see any?
Is the transit chest Canadian (refer to MKL article for details of what to look for)? i.e.: leather handles and number of hinge screws. Is it HCF stamped on the edge of the bottom at one end, referring to HILL CLARK FRANCIS of New Liskeard, Ontario. Sticker on chest lid seems to refer to a British No.4 Mk1(T) with a No.32 scope?
Finally, I'd recommend you pass the pics (and more if possible) through folks such as Peter Laidler, Dr. Roger Payne, Lance, Claven2, Clive Law, Warren, John Sukey, sunray, purple, Lee Enfield, Stencollector, tiriaq, smellie and lots of other experts, for another opinion, as they've forgotten more than I'll ever know about these old girls.
Check the Knowledge Library for an all correct example of this type of piece, complete with a 197 photo montage and an article by one of our Advisory Panelhttp://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=23 members, Clive "service pub" Law, about the Long Branch Trade Pattern snipers.
1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1*(T) Long Branch TP Sniper Rifle Serial # 74L0318http://www.milsurps.com/content.php...)-Long-Branch-TP-(Trade-Pattern)-Sniper-Rifle
(Converted by Long Branch Arsenal, Ontario, Canada)
c/w matching Telescopic, Sighting C No.32, Mk.I(TP) (Trade Pattern)
Scope Serial # 4392S (Mfg by Lyman-Alaskan)
This is a very expensive decision for you and you don't want to feel disappointed if it doesn't turn out to match you expectations. Ive been there and done that personally with two sellers in the Canadian market who assemble some pretty good looking representative pieces, but they turned out to be just that, "put togethers" with correct parts and not worth the value I paid.
I didn't find out until I showed the pieces to some of the real experts, one of which who is a personal friend who visited and handled them, only to validate by disappointment.
Needless to say, I wouldn't deal again with the two sellers mentioned. It's often not what the seller says, but it's how they carefully qualify what they say about the piece. That should be a tip-off itself, but I still made the mistakes any way.
Hope that helps a bit ..
Regards,
Doug
I'd like to see more detailed pics of other areas of the rifle, transit chest and scope, plus pay attention to some of the inconsistencies that rgg_7 has already pointed out …
My guess is that elements of it have been assembled from relatively correct components to create a relatively accurate but not "all correct" original condition piece.
I also get a little nervous when I see a piece presented to me by a seller that has a boat load of nice little add-ons such as action covers, pull throughs and cleaning cloths with it, that add to a sense of completeness.
Is the scope serial number stamped on the top of the butt wrist and if so, is the area where it's stamped show original wood wear, or seem flatter? Is there a "C Broad Arrow" with associated inspector's mark number on the scope mount centre, under the rifle serial number on the mating scope mount itself? I don't see any?
Is the transit chest Canadian (refer to MKL article for details of what to look for)? i.e.: leather handles and number of hinge screws. Is it HCF stamped on the edge of the bottom at one end, referring to HILL CLARK FRANCIS of New Liskeard, Ontario. Sticker on chest lid seems to refer to a British No.4 Mk1(T) with a No.32 scope?
Finally, I'd recommend you pass the pics (and more if possible) through folks such as Peter Laidler, Dr. Roger Payne, Lance, Claven2, Clive Law, Warren, John Sukey, sunray, purple, Lee Enfield, Stencollector, tiriaq, smellie and lots of other experts, for another opinion, as they've forgotten more than I'll ever know about these old girls.
Check the Knowledge Library for an all correct example of this type of piece, complete with a 197 photo montage and an article by one of our Advisory Panelhttp://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=23 members, Clive "service pub" Law, about the Long Branch Trade Pattern snipers.
1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1*(T) Long Branch TP Sniper Rifle Serial # 74L0318http://www.milsurps.com/content.php...)-Long-Branch-TP-(Trade-Pattern)-Sniper-Rifle
(Converted by Long Branch Arsenal, Ontario, Canada)
c/w matching Telescopic, Sighting C No.32, Mk.I(TP) (Trade Pattern)
Scope Serial # 4392S (Mfg by Lyman-Alaskan)
This is a very expensive decision for you and you don't want to feel disappointed if it doesn't turn out to match you expectations. Ive been there and done that personally with two sellers in the Canadian market who assemble some pretty good looking representative pieces, but they turned out to be just that, "put togethers" with correct parts and not worth the value I paid.
I didn't find out until I showed the pieces to some of the real experts, one of which who is a personal friend who visited and handled them, only to validate by disappointment.
Needless to say, I wouldn't deal again with the two sellers mentioned. It's often not what the seller says, but it's how they carefully qualify what they say about the piece. That should be a tip-off itself, but I still made the mistakes any way.
Hope that helps a bit ..
Regards,
Doug
Thanks for the info Doug nice to get I really know nothing about these rifles and yes it clearly is not all original for sure was just posting for people to see and get a rough idea of worth that's all the action cover and pull through and swabs and other stuff are just stuff collected over the years to go with the rifle matching numbers or not still a nice rifle to look at and for me that's what collecting is about.
Dave
Dave
You're welcome Dave ...
Sorry, misread your post and thought you were being offered to buy it, not that you already owned it ...
Give me a coffee break and oyu have to retrain me ...
Regardless, a good representative example of a Trade Pattern sniper ...
Regards,
Doug
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Somewhere there is a Bren missing it's spare parts tin. The Enfield buttplate spring was used as a handy screwdriver so it is correct.
The Enfield buttplate spring was used as a handy screwdriver so it is correct.
