Ethics Question For Military Collectors Please Read and Respond

I really hope you guys don't go down that road if you don't have to.

I'm new to milsurps, have acquired 9 dog-eared examples since last September, however not a single one (except for the SKS) is an all matching rifle...because frankly, I can't afford most of those (although I almost snagged one, but was second in line on the EE..and lost). The more nice milsurps that are lost to sporterizing...the fewer left out there....prices go up even more and my chance to own something nice diminishes even more. I have a 1917 SMLE on it's way, my first one, possibly here on Thursday and I'm as excited as a kid at xmas....all I know for sure is the barrel, action and bolt match....will be one of my best pieces, lol.

Anyway...hope you guys can resist the temptation to let these great witnesses of history go to those $$ but do not see their true value. There's still a few of us (somewhat) younger guys that are hoping to take care of a few for awhile...before they're all gone.
 
Good thread. Gives us cause for some thought on this matter. I sadly admit that I "sportered" a CZ 98 Mauser about 30-some years back. Luckily, I had two, neither matching, but both in nice shape. I bought one in the Army & Navy in Regina and one in New Westminster for about $35 each. The bubba'd one put lots of whitetail in the freezer, so it wasn't a total waste.

I happen to own a SAT barrelled M91 Mosin Nagant. I owned the rifle for well over 20 years before I became aware of how rare the rifle was. Even smellie wasn't familiar with this particular rifle!!!!!! :eek: I can't count how many times I've thanked my lucky stars that I didn't do anything dumb with it.

Lesson there for me was to pay a LOT more attention to detail on my rifles, and to be more diligent when looking at rifles at gun shows and gun shops.

I, too, consider myself as more of a renter than an owner, as all of my collection will most assuredly be in someone else' possession in due time.
 
This same question needs to be posed to "antique" collectors who do modification to original antique firearms.
In some cases the antique is trashed at time of purchase and a restoration brings it back.
But the reverse also occurs where guys change original parts, barrels cylinders or re-chamber cylinders to common modern calibers.
Which is more ethical??? Sporterizing an original unaltered milsurp or messing with an original untouched antique???
Would you sell an antique to someone known to do this???
 
Alonzo said:
This same question needs to be posed to "antique" collectors who do modification to original antique firearms.
In some cases the antique is trashed at time of purchase and a restoration brings it back.
But the reverse also occurs where guys change original parts, barrels cylinders or re-chamber cylinders to common modern calibers.
Which is more ethical??? Sporterizing an original unaltered milsurp or messing with an original untouched antique???
Would you sell an antique to someone known to do this???
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It's not that simple - why just antiques, why not other guns that are not antiques, but are 100 years old? Or 50 years? Or.........

Why stop with modifications? We shouldn't even shoot them, as that causes wear.

What about the brand new limited edition special order rifle I buy? May I modify it now, but not in 50 years? Never?

There will never be as many new Savage 110's in 270- as there are Mosin Nagants. Do I destroy some "heritage" if I modify a new Savage?
 
Thanks Andy for finding a hole in my previously-thought-as-smooth perspective. :D Got me thinking.

Actually I think there's a difference between, say, a nice commercial Lee Speed, and a military Lee Metford or early Lee Enfield of the same era; the reason for their manufacturing is what sets these apart. And the curatorial value is therefore different. Not that the Lee Speed has no collector's value, but it's definitely not in the same category. One was made for profit, the other one for military; two separate portions of history.
 
louthepou said:
Thanks Andy for finding a hole in my previously-thought-as-smooth perspective. :D Got me thinking.

Actually I think there's a difference between, say, a nice commercial Lee Speed, and a military Lee Metford or early Lee Enfield of the same era; the reason for their manufacturing is what sets these apart. And the curatorial value is therefore different. Not that the Lee Speed has no collector's value, but it's definitely not in the same category. One was made for profit, the other one for military; two separate portions of history.
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Personally, I wouldn't sell a Lee Speed to Bubba either, they just aren't made any more - hence their value
 
Good posts everyone, I enjoyed the read. I came across this exact same issue myself this week. I have on my way to me a Russian M44 that I am told is in unfired condition, but missing a bayonet. Now I really shouldn't of bought it but I did, and now need to pass it on. Someone I talked to said that since the bayonet was missing it was perfect for sporterizing! I did not feel that way at all! I felt that although it is not going to be 100% original it is no reason to destroy a piece like this. I decided not to post it for sale where I had this conversation, and when the time comes I hope someone who thinks in the same way we all do here takes possession of it and enjoys it for what it is.
 
Gillen1 said:
Good posts everyone, I enjoyed the read. I came across this exact same issue myself this week. I have on my way to me a Russian M44 that I am told is in unfired condition, but missing a bayonet. Now I really shouldn't of bought it but I did, and now need to pass it on. Someone I talked to said that since the bayonet was missing it was perfect for sporterizing! I did not feel that way at all! I felt that although it is not going to be 100% original it is no reason to destroy a piece like this. I decided not to post it for sale where I had this conversation, and when the time comes I hope someone who thinks in the same way we all do here takes possession of it and enjoys it for what it is.
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Out of all my milsurps, the M44 always goes to the range - I was at eesa last Friday and a guy with 3 teen aged boys walked over from the next range because they wanted to hear what type of rifle was that loud. After showing her off, I let all four of them try her out and I tell you, nothing beats seeing the look of joy on someone's face when they fire something like that for the very first time. Who knows? Those 3 teen age boys could be well be on the way to becoming fellow milsurp collectors like us
 
I don't see myself ever selling any of my milsurps in general and especially not to bubba. Even the lowliest Mosin refurb has a place in my heart and if I could I would buy every single milsurp rifle if it meant saving them from bubba.
 
I really didn't need to hear that! I want to keep it but know I can't! Once I get it in my hands I may have to take it out once before selling it, but then I feel like it will be even harder to sell!

I was at EESA last Sunday and my mosin nagant got a lot of looks and passed around quite a bit that day. Always good to show people what they are missing from the Milsurp world. One guy said that he was impressed since he assumed that they were so cheap in the states they must not be worth owning here! Glad I changed his mind.



DJdeadlyDALEK said:
Out of all my milsurps, the M44 always goes to the range - I was at eesa last Friday and a guy with 3 teen aged boys walked over from the next range because they wanted to hear what type of rifle was that loud. After showing her off, I let all four of them try her out and I tell you, nothing beats seeing the look of joy on someone's face when they fire something like that for the very first time. Who knows? Those 3 teen age boys could be well be on the way to becoming fellow milsurp collectors like us
Click to expand...
 
Gillen1 said:
I really didn't need to hear that! I want to keep it but know I can't! Once I get it in my hands I may have to take it out once before selling it, but then I feel like it will be even harder to sell!

I was at EESA last Sunday and my mosin nagant got a lot of looks and passed around quite a bit that day. Always good to show people what they are missing from the Milsurp world. One guy said that he was impressed since he assumed that they were so cheap in the states they must not be worth owning here! Glad I changed his mind.
Click to expand...

One of the guys who tried my M44 said he had a regular old Mosin Nagant and couldn't believe how much louder the M44 was in comparison.
 
Just how prevalent is the old school Bubba backyard gunsmith in this age of dirt cheap sporting rifles like the Savage Axis? Even for the dead common and cheap 91/30 and SKS, a big chunk of the stuff out there is drop-in bolt-on microwave-dinner Insta-Bubba mad-screwdriver-skillz stuff. Unless a 91/30 gets hacked down and the stock used to bat rocks, most of that stuff can be undone.

How many guys are picking up unmolested enfields, mausers, ross rifles, et al and going "Hmmm...what that needs is a 19" barrel, a plastic stock and a quad rail and I'll have my ideal moose/tree/old-TV/mall-ninja-urban-commando gun"?
 
The matter is sort of like saying good morning to a stranger on the street. Some wouldn't, some would. I stumbled on a website in the US that was chock full of posts of guys prouder than peacocks for drilling and tapping rifles such as 1908 Brazil, 1909 Argentine, etc. I couldn't hack reading more than a couple of posts. I ran out on the street and said hello to the next ten strangers! :p
 
Thanks for the honest responses. I had to ask you gentlemen about this because I have a VG rifle for sale on the EE, and I had one response from a member inquiring about buying the barrelled action. I was tempted because of financial commitments but your responses just reinforced my resistance to the offer. Thank you again I just needed to know you gentleman were behind me.
 
In the 1950's milsurps were EVERYWHERE and back then many were converted to sporting rifles. HOWEVER that has changed drastically. Sportyizing today is turning a $500 rifle into a $125 sporter. I would add that commercial sporting rifles are available off the shelf and cost less than a bubbad military rifle.
 
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