European vs American

[Dosing]

This has come to my mind moreso from others comments, so hey, I thought I would run a poll.

Sorry, I am going to leave other geographic areas out, so for instance no Japan.

 

[Gibbs505]

Europe, but the expense!! :shock: :shock:

 

[Republic of Alberta]

Europe seems to have more pride in craftmanship, more businesses have vision of quality and customer satisfaction over the long term, gaining a good reputation.

USA is the land of cheap traders. Crank out a product for maximum profit = high rate of warranty work and returns. The companys vision is to make the most money as soon as possible. Gaining a good reputation is done through positive advertising, fooling the customer into beliving they are getting a top quality product.

 

[1899]

No comparision. Europe has better quality firearms. This of course does not include the fine custom rifles available by North American gunsmiths.
But how can you compare the quality of a Remchester to Sako, Mauser, Blaser, Heym, Sauer, Merkel, Krieghoff and so on? IMHO you can't.

 

[Leeper]

American designs are better. European workmanship is better. Europeans are more progressive while Americans are more inclined to traditional designs. Kind of strange, that. Americans are more likely to go with simplicity while Europeans worship complexity often to the detriment of reliability. The Americans still look upon rifles as functional tools. This is reflected even in the custom fields. Europeans often seem to regard rifles, like many other things, as an engineering excercise. They do things just to show they can be done a certain way and still work. Sometimes, they don't really work all that well. The Colt-Sauer rifle is a classic example.
The Finnish and Swedish rifles are a bit of an exception. They are usually simple and robust. Workmanship is usually pretty good. Stock design sucks and they are a bit spendy.
In the end, whatever offers a feeling of pride of ownership to the owner/user is pretty good I figure. Regards, Bill.

 

[deer hunter]

european gun makers are of better quality overall

 

[1899]

Bill: What about quality of the materials (metalurgy) used and components like barrels? How do those compare?

 

[Claven2]

Buy the cheapest name rifle you can find that has decent looks (ie, not Savage, Mossberg ATR, etc.) and send it to a really good gunsmith with about a $1500 cheque.

You'll get a rifle far better than what $2000 can buy off the shelf if you don;t mind the wait for it to be crafted

 

[1899]

You'll get a rifle far better than what $2000 can buy off the shelf

That is a bold statement! You can get a Sako with a nice wood stock for around $1300 plus tax. I have difficulty believing that you could match the quality for the same price. Keep in mind the wood stock, the quality of the bluing etc etc.

 

[Claven2]

Well, for 2K you can get a trued, hand fitted lapped, hand polished Remmy 700 or Winny 70 with a custom hand checkered stock fitted specifically to your body dimensions, match grade barrel in a caliber and spec of your choice and your features of choice such as trigger, sights, etc.

All this is assuming you get the donor rifle used for a reasonable price - I usually look for one with a good action but with issues such as beat or damaged stock, problem barrel, etc. to cut down on action costs so I can spend more on the features I want.

I'd rather have that over ANY stock Sako, though your mileage may vary...

 

[aulrich]

Euopean makers have a different market that they build for. In most of Euope you need to be stinking rich to hunt, hunting is definitly an upper class sort of thing especially biggame. Where as the bulk of North American (at least for now) is more of a every man thing, which scales down the budgets.

 

[1899]

Looking at most custom rifles on the smith's website, I see prices of around $3000 for a complete rifle.

a custom hand checkered stock fitted specifically to your body dimensions

I was also under the impression that hand checkering alone will be a couple of hundred dollars.

Can you break down the costs into components? I am curious because if you are correct my research is off.

 

[TimC]

Euopean makers have a different market that they build for. In most of Euope you need to be stinking rich to hunt, hunting is definitly an upper class sort of thing especially biggame. Where as the bulk of North American (at least for now) is more of a every man thing, which scales down the budgets.

Easy there tiger, I hunt most weekends and this last month I have had no work so I have been out almost every day and night. Big Game here is Red and Sika Deer. I can get Fallow, a good woodland substitute for less than you probably pay for a whitetail. Think about all the licenses!
I can also shoot all year round at Deer, rabbit, hare, pigeons, canada geese and fox! I also make more in a year than most of my buddies and they put me to shame! Not bad for someone who grew up in a caravan with no electricity, running water and sanitation was a pot!
I also buy CZ rifles for stalking or properly sportered surplus from the 40's and it costs me less than my Rugers which I dearly love!
P.s. we can use silencers and shoot after dark and none of our quarry can kill us!

 

[Claven2]

OK, here's my breakdown for a good hunting rig:

$300 for beater M700 or Win70 action, less if you use an old Mauser action (and better too IMHO).
$400 for bbl if you shop around.
$200 for semi-inlet plain Black or Claro walnut select grade stock.
$300 to finish and inlet stock (liberal estimate).
$200 for hand cut checkering.
$300 for assorted metal finishing and blueing.

That adds up to $1700 and leaves $300 for accessories such as grip caps, sights, trigger, different bottom metal, etc. as you see fit.

 

[olek_Z_bc]

I voted for Europe, but then I am biased... :lol:

If you want a good comparison, go to your local shop and pick up the cheapest blaser, sauer, etc. and compare it to the nicest winchester or remington on the shelf.

You will be hard pressed to say that the european made guns are not superior.

I think the quality of the wood in euro guns far surpasses anything in "regular" off the shelf guns made in the US/North America. Engraving is a gimmie... the europeans have been doing master engraving jobs for longer than Canada has been a country, etc.

Don't get me started on optics. If anyone says that Zeiss or Swarovski is overpriced #### compared to leupold don't know what they're talking about. Most euro optics are designed for euro hunting (i.e. hunting at night, yes as in when it's dark out :lol so light transmission and scope lens diameter are usually always bigger in the eruo made optics.

Anyhow, for the record, when I am older (said this before :lol: ) I will own a nice Blaser R93 or a Sauer 202, nothing to do with being "snobby" it's not like europe and the group hunts where you got to "show off" you stuff. it's just a personal matter of fine craftsmanship and a wood stock that is apealing to the eye.

For the record I now shoot a browning BBR that is scoped with a bushnell, but like I said once I can afford the nice gear and appriciate it for what it is, it will certainly be a rifle from a european manufacturer.

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Claven2]

My three main hunting rifles are, in no particular order:

1) Ruger 1A
2) Remington actioned custom
3) DWM Mauser sporting

so I guess you could say I like NA as much as Euro, but in general the euro guns are better fit and finished when new. Then again, I generally prefer custom jobs, so...

And no, I'm not wealthy - I just enjoy the project aspect.

 

[sPuTnik]

Buy the cheapest name rifle you can find that has decent looks (ie, not Savage, Mossberg ATR, etc.) and send it to a really good gunsmith with about a $1500 cheque.

This is like saying go buy a Cavalier give Boyd Coddington $50,000 and he will build you a Corvette. Why bother? Buy the Vette and doll it up.

I would sooner base my custom on a Sako or Mauser action to begin with. Don't get me wrong, I love my Remmy's and Winnie's but they just are just not in the same league. We live in an "Instant Oatmeal" society.... If it ain't cheap and ready in 20 seconds, we don't want it. Europeans demand and expect quality... and they are willing to pay for it. They would rather have ONE handcrafted gun than a safe full of mediocre ones. :idea: Quality vs. Quanity. Gunsmithing and engraving have been handed down for generations. To me a gun is more than just a TOOL. If that was the case I would only own a Bubba'd up Enfield. :roll:

 

[Scarecrow]

European. Americans barely produce anything of there own anymore and they dont even try to make new designs, just repackage the same old crap.

 

[aulrich]

TimC

I type corrected... I think. That opion was formulated in conversation with German relatives and visitors over the years, they left me with the impression that is was not a cheap proposition to get into hunting.

I guess I have two visions of Eupoean hunters, Farmer/ game keeprs , those guys who seem to blast a lot of fox's and those guys and those who wear red coats and chase foxes on horses yelling tally ho (Though I know thats been banned now) bowing thos damn horns .

What is it like getting permission to hunt is there any public land to hunt.

 

[martinbns]

Europe, I love my Sako's and my son's Tikka is a great rifle.
Leeper,
What is it about the stock design that you don't like about Finnish/Swedish guns? I'm no expert but they certainly feel greatin my hands, a little heavy perhaps but the fit for me is excellent.