Ever had a look at WW2 German Soldiers book, covering about 300 non-German weapons?

[steelgray]

The German Soldiers book was produced during WW2 - for use by German troops - introducing to the Wermacht to about 300 non-German weapons that might be encountered by German soldiers in the field - and perhaps pressed into service by them ('cause the Germans used lots of captured weapons).

see D50/1 Kennblätter Fremden Geräts" 1 Handwaffen German Soldier's book

Yup, that's a link to the actual 300 page WW2 book

Some guns produced in only small numbers are in there - including my fav - the SKT-40 under the index SiGewehr 259/2(r) which is stand for the "Shortened SVT-40".

Too bad for SKS kool-aid drinkers - the SKS-45 isn't in there.

BTW: Chumak says that a Simonov-designed carbine WAS produced in WW2 but not actually combat field tested. BUT it was in 7.62x54R and performed badly - even in non-combat use.

 

[M1-Garand]

I would sure love to find the German manual for the SVT40,the Wehrmacht captured them in huge numbers,used them against their former owners and sure knew how to maintain them.
And of course the gas system lived on in their G43/K43,less the adjustable gas block,but otherwise almost identical,the bore size of gas cylinders is even the same.

 

[steelgray]

I would sure love to find the German manual for the SVT40,the Wehrmacht captured them in huge numbers,used them against their former owners and sure knew how to maintain them.
And of course the gas system lived on in their G43/K43,less the adjustable gas block,but otherwise almost identical,the bore size of gas cylinders is even the same.

The Germans liked the SVT38 SVT 40 and the SKT-40 - so much so that they issued them to their troops and reportedly made ammo for them. They also printed German language manuals for them.

I haven't seen one of those but there is a very detailed, illustrated Russian manual covering the SKT-40, dating to around 1940.

Here's the link:

SKT-40 Russian Army manual of 1940

 

[M1-Garand]

The Germans liked the SVT38 SVT 40 and the SKT-40 - so much so that they issued them to their troops and reportedly made ammo for them. They also printed German language manuals for them.

I haven't seen one of those but there is a very detailed, illustrated Russian manual covering the SKT-40, dating to around 1940.

Here's the link:

SKT-40 Russian Army manual of 1940

Wow,that's neat,I wish Google translate would work on that.

 

[Milanczar]

Excellent!

 

[Fuzzy Wool Hat]

Too bad for SKS kool-aid drinkers - the SKS-45 isn't in there.

BTW: Chumak says that a Simonov-designed carbine WAS produced in WW2 but not actually combat field tested. BUT it was in 7.62x54R and performed badly - even in non-combat use.

maybe the SKS-45 isn’t in the manual because it’s printed in 1941?

 

[steelgray]

maybe the SKS-45 isn’t in the manual because it’s printed in 1941?

Yes and because it was never used in WW2. The earlier Simonov carbine in 7.62x54R didn't make it to the book either because it was only tested in a non-combat arena

 

[sail32]

SKS-31: The 7.62x54mmR Predecessor of SKS Carbine

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...-7-62x54mmr-predecessor-of-the-7-62x39mm-sks/

And it's predecessor the Simonov designed the PTRS-41 of 1938.

https://rifletech.net/cgi-bin/shop.pl/page=ptrs-41.html/SID=PUT_SID_HERE

 

[AP]

was a similar -- smaller --- one used by Canadians

 

[steelgray]

SKS-31: The 7.62x54mmR Predecessor of SKS Carbine

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...-7-62x54mmr-predecessor-of-the-7-62x39mm-sks/

And it's predecessor the Simonov designed the PTRS-41 of 1938.

https://rifletech.net/cgi-bin/shop.pl/page=ptrs-41.html/SID=PUT_SID_HERE

Wow you totally nailed it. I had heard of this source of the mistaken belief that SKS-45 type rifles were tested and or used in WW2 but never found anything that showed so specifically that the SKS in question was an earlier Simonov carbine in 7.62X54R; which was was never combat tested and - otherwise did poorly in limited WW2 non-combat field testing.

Thanks for this important link!

I've created an illustration of the two guns for comparison. Yes I know that the SKS-45 shown is a later version. This is not my day job.

 

[VuDu666]

This thing was tested during WW2. It was called SKS prototype model 1944. Non of these rifles survived AFAIK. It was select fire rifle chambered in 7.62x39. One batch was sent for testing to central officer's school, second batch was sent to 1st Belorussian front.

 

[steelgray]

This thing was tested during WW2. It was called SKS prototype model 1944. Non of these rifles survived AFAIK. It was select fire rifle chambered in 7.62x39. One batch was sent for testing to central officer's school, second batch was sent to 1st Belorussian front.

Very interesting. I looks like the sks-31 but in 7.62x41 or 7.362x39. What is the source (i.e., teh book you have copied)?

 

[VuDu666]

Round used was definitely x39. Specs indicated in the article match x39. Info was taken from the book by Bolotyn D.N called History of soviet small arms and ammo. Here's PDF version but it's in Russian obviously. Carbine in question is shown on page 83. Kalashnikov carbine is on page 84. http://www.shooting-ua.com/dop_arhiv/dop_2/books/Istor_sovet_orujiya.pdf

 

[VuDu666]

Round used was definitely x39. Specs indicated in the article match x39. Info was taken from the book by Bolotyn D.N called History of soviet small arms and ammo. Here's PDF version but it's in Russian obviously. Carbine in question is shown on page 83. Kalashnikov carbine is on page 84. http://www.shooting-ua.com/dop_arhiv/dop_2/books/Istor_sovet_orujiya.pdf
I have more pictures and couple of articles on my old hard-drive somewhere. Couple of years ago I got fed up listening to guys who try to reenact WW2 but are too cheap to buy an SVT so I did some digging around. Info is out there but not easy to find if one doesn't speak the language. Every article I saw clearly states that weapon did see combat use, so as x39 round, for the first time since it's creation. BUT this was experimental weapon which had feeding issues, extraction issues and it was prone to jamming when exposed to the elements. It took another 3 years to develop SKS we now know.
P.S Author of above mentioned book published a lot material, had PhD in history and bunch of soviet awards, so it's not him pulling all the info out of his you know what.

 

[mbogo3]

When they began developing the round it was originally a 7.62x41 then became 7.62x39

 

[VuDu666]

When they began developing the round it was originally a 7.62x41 then became 7.62x39

Development started in 1939 but WW2 stopped put it on hold. Originally, intermediate cartridge was 5.45 of unknown length, surprise surprise, but caliber was changed to 7.62 and in 1943 7.62x39 was born. Even before WW2 there were three people who presented carbines made to use intermediate cartridge. Again, trails were interrupted by war. I think x41 was just a variant created for trials but carbine in question, so as carbine developed by Kalashnikov were definitely chambered in x39.

 

[Light Infantry]

maybe the SKS-45 isn’t in the manual because it’s printed in 1941?

No. The manual shows an M1A1 carbine. They weren't delivered until, i believe October 1942. So the manual must have been updated at least once.

 

[steelgray]

No. The manual shows an M1A1 carbine. They weren't delivered until, i believe October 1942. So the manual must have been updated at least once.

Good catch. I also noted that it includes the PPS43 and not the PPSh41. There is a stamp on the cover of 1944 so that suggests the original was updated. Even the binding (of the book in the photo suggests that pages could be added and removed. Ditto there is no index and not all numbers are represented. Thus, a PPS41 page could be out there somewhere but not part of the historic document, as it exists now.

Their is one Simonov rifle or carbine in there that I noticed but it is a Simonov 36.

In other matters the research material found and provided by VuDu666 (2 and three posts above) looks definitive. At these I am convinced.

This would mean that the SKS-41 was field tested during WW2 but the war ended before the SKS 45 was produced or distributed.

I guess that, after war's end, interest with doing anything with the 45 pattern would wane 'till the 50's. So much so that the gun didn't even make it to the Korean War - except for one SKS-45 gun! The proof of this is an episode of MASH where Hawkeye is taken prisoner by a North Korean soldier, armed with an SKS!

What are the chances of Hawkeye Pierce being the only person to ever witness the use of an SKS-45 in Korea, during the Korean war? ... It is enough to make you drink ...

Getting back to the German Solder's book, there is one Simonov rifle or carbine in there that I noticed but it is a Simonov 36. Could there have been pages made up for the SKS-31, SKS-41 etc. Possibly but such guns could have to have been captured and documented to make the cut. Thus being in the book - like the SKT-40 means that such guns weer collected by the Germans during field operations but guns not listed does not definitive prove that such guns never were field in WW2. Such missing guns (from the book) simply could have never been captured by the Germans, or captured but never documented or captured and documented but never featured and an update page in this particular - apparently incomplete - copy of the German Soldiers book.

Usually easy to prove a positive; often hard to prove a negative. Can you prove that Hawkeye wasn't captured by a North Korean soldier armed with an SKS-45?