- Location
- Western Manitoba
Well, something happened in past 1/2 hour - all I see now, are links to Flickr - images are gone...
Expectations versus reality...is it me?
- Thread starter ShawnRich
- Start date
Yes, sorry. That is what I see too. The images are shared on flickr. You do not need an account to see them, or so I understand. I was logged out of both flickr and CGN and could see the images from the links.
Is anyone else able to view the images via the links?
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have to very deliberately put the rifle back into the same position shot after shot when shooting a bolt action. A semi doesn't have that same problem. The gentlefolk here have suggested head position and parallax. I'd just say head and eyeball position. Put a kisser on the stock or a piece of opaque tape on your glasses to reference yourself onto the rifle.
A better quality rifle is one possibility. There will be dealers lining up to sell you the solution to your quest. This is not smart.
Here is a cheaper and easier route. Take a box of your best grouping ammo and ask one of the benchresters to shoot a few groups. This will give you some idea of your skills versus your current equipment.
If the person is in a good mood, you might even get to try a few rounds from his or her benchrest gun. Most shooters have spare rounds that they don't fully trust in competition, but are OK as rough sighters, or barrel foulers. Now you will find out if it is you that needs work.
Bedding, trigger work and other gunsmithing efforts are fine for shooters that have proven their abilities with best quality equipment. Right now spending a lot of money with too many variables is just chasing your tail.
You have had some good suggestions about basics such as checking screw tightness and cleaning. Parallax is a whole discussion unto itself. I hope you understand that 22 scopes are sold as such for parallax correction reasons. If your Barfska is meant for centerfire rifles, then that would be 2 strikes against it.
Your existing setup is likely near its limit although as a teaching tool and general plinker it should last a lifetime. If 22, or centerfire, benchrest is where you are headed, get out your wallet.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
OP - read, and re-read Post #27 - there is not a single statement in there that I would disagree with, at all. That advice for you is "bang on"...
Yes, I have and agree. All of the posts I have received have been good advice for me, I think.
Thanks everyone for giving me input. I will report back when I have some updates. The better ammo and bench rest obviously helped a lot. I will continue with that for now. I plan on going out when the benchrest club meets again and chat with some of the guys. I know a couple from outside the range so should have no problem checking out their guns and doing as bc308 suggests.
Question for bc308...
Take a box of your best grouping ammo and ask one of the benchresters to shoot a few groups. This will give you some idea of your skills versus your current equipment.
You mean ask them to shoot my gun with my good ammo? To see what effect the skill level has on it.... That should be fun!
As for the comment about my wallet, it is already itching to be opened!
but I think that i will continue on to milk this setup as much as possible for improvement (which I think is what you are saying) I figure since I started in a sand pit with this setup, and have now gone to a range and analyzing the results a little more, if I can see gains in my shooting as I tweak the small factors, then that will be all good experience. Thanks again,
Cheers,
Shawn
Getting someone else to shoot your gun is always a good way to remove yourself as a variable. Two other shooters would be even better. Even if the guy places 10th in a field of 50 at a BR shoot, believe me the guy will know how to shoot.
On your second point I completely disagree. I class your current setup as a hardware store, chicken coop gun. It's entry level and you should not pour more money into the proverbial sow's ear. Later on, after you have shot good stuff, you can return to play with this one, but you will likely not consider it worth the time.
This is getting possibly too simplistic, but let's say there are two levels above your current rifle. The top would be dedicated biathlon and benchrest rifles, very costly. In the middle are rifles such as the CZ 452, and other heavy barreled models from Anschutz and others. (No I am not about to list one on the EE!) These heavy barrel models are built to achieve higher levels of accuracy that pencil barrel models sacrifice to portability. Expect to pay twice to three times what your current gun costs. Have a look at what guys are using in the 22 PRS matches and their logic in why they use the various attributes of them. For targets of course single shots are fine.
Scopes, now here is a loaded question. I favour scopes of equal value to the gun I am putting them on. Sometimes I have put on scopes costing half again as much. If you can't trust the scope because it's not consistent, all your range time and ammo cost is wasted, unless you just like holding a gun that goes bang. I stick to higher quality models of name brand scopes. Surf around these forums and learn how to test a scope shooting a grid.
Here is a thought. Buy the high quality scope that you will be putting on your dream 22 target rifle. Put it on your current rifle paying attention to the mounts. Use good ones. Shoot the grid; don't trust any scope just because it was expensive. Now get lots of trigger time to the point where few guys can outshoot you with your own rifle.
On your second point I completely disagree. I class your current setup as a hardware store, chicken coop gun. It's entry level and you should not pour more money into the proverbial sow's ear. Later on, after you have shot good stuff, you can return to play with this one, but you will likely not consider it worth the time.
This is getting possibly too simplistic, but let's say there are two levels above your current rifle. The top would be dedicated biathlon and benchrest rifles, very costly. In the middle are rifles such as the CZ 452, and other heavy barreled models from Anschutz and others. (No I am not about to list one on the EE!) These heavy barrel models are built to achieve higher levels of accuracy that pencil barrel models sacrifice to portability. Expect to pay twice to three times what your current gun costs. Have a look at what guys are using in the 22 PRS matches and their logic in why they use the various attributes of them. For targets of course single shots are fine.
Scopes, now here is a loaded question. I favour scopes of equal value to the gun I am putting them on. Sometimes I have put on scopes costing half again as much. If you can't trust the scope because it's not consistent, all your range time and ammo cost is wasted, unless you just like holding a gun that goes bang. I stick to higher quality models of name brand scopes. Surf around these forums and learn how to test a scope shooting a grid.
Here is a thought. Buy the high quality scope that you will be putting on your dream 22 target rifle. Put it on your current rifle paying attention to the mounts. Use good ones. Shoot the grid; don't trust any scope just because it was expensive. Now get lots of trigger time to the point where few guys can outshoot you with your own rifle.
Getting someone else to shoot your gun is always a good way to remove yourself as a variable. Two other shooters would be even better. Even if the guy places 10th in a field of 50 at a BR shoot, believe me the guy will know how to shoot.
Sounds good. I will try that
On your second point I completely disagree. I class your current setup as a hardware store, chicken coop gun.
Heeeey!!!
It's entry level and you should not pour more money into the proverbial sow's ear.
I meant buying a new gun, not putting money into this one. I know I have a basic entry level gun, not really intended to be worrying about groups but rather just hit a bird or rabbit. What I meant is kind of what you say below. I will try to learn as much as I can with this equipment before buying a benchrest gun. And am considering a scope purchase now for the same reasons you say.
This is getting possibly too simplistic, but let's say there are two levels above your current rifle. The top would be dedicated biathlon and benchrest rifles, very costly. In the middle are rifles such as the CZ 452, and other heavy barreled models from Anschutz and others. (No I am not about to list one on the EE!) These heavy barrel models are built to achieve higher levels of accuracy that pencil barrel models sacrifice to portability. Expect to pay twice to three times what your current gun costs. Have a look at what guys are using in the 22 PRS matches and their logic in why they use the various attributes of them. For targets of course single shots are fine.
Scopes, now here is a loaded question. I favour scopes of equal value to the gun I am putting them on. Sometimes I have put on scopes costing half again as much. If you can't trust the scope because it's not consistent, all your range time and ammo cost is wasted, unless you just like holding a gun that goes bang. I stick to higher quality models of name brand scopes. Surf around these forums and learn how to test a scope shooting a grid.
Here is a thought. Buy the high quality scope that you will be putting on your dream 22 target rifle. Put it on your current rifle paying attention to the mounts. Use good ones. Shoot the grid; don't trust any scope just because it was expensive. Now get lots of trigger time to the point where few guys can outshoot you with your own rifle.
Thank you for the input. It is much appreciated. I will go surf the grid because I am not familiar with that.
Cheers,
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Shooting a grid - verifies that the bias spring, turrets, etc. all work smoothly inside the scope - turn up 10 or 15 or 20 clicks - fire, then right same amount - fire, then down same amount - fire, then left same amount - fire - then up same amount - fire, - if all is well your last shot(s) will be on top of first shot(s) - should have a "square" - a "grid" of holes - will demonstrate to you where there is slop / "take-up" / etc. in any particular adjustment. Also, because each time you fire is aimed at a different place, really brings out parallax error and deficiencies in the shooter's grip and form. Like most sampling, likely better to repeat entire process at least a couple or three times - to see if you get consistent results - whether they be good, bad or indifferent.
Thinking about that with a rifle that produces, say 1" groups of five at 25 yards. I suspect would be better to fire 3 times or 5 times (?) at each of the five places. Might want to research the math to find the precise centre of a multi-shot group. I suspect it is those "centers" that will be what tracks - not necessarily any particular bullet hole??
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- Location
- Western Manitoba
I re-read what I wrote - I phrased that badly - you are, of course, going to aim at the exact same point each time that you shoot - you are not "aiming" at a different place. But your rifle will be pointing to a different place. Hence your form, parallax, etc. comes into play.
Also, nothing magic about the 25 yards - could be most any distance - unless your rifle and ammo and you are capable of placing one bullet after another into virtually same hole at that range, probably better to fire several shots, not just one - to verify what is or is not "tracking".
Likely helps to watch as the group is "built" - especially the older hunting scopes that I grew up with - would continue to move after first shot - insides were not as smooth as modern stuff can be made now - so sometimes had to be fired 2 or 3 times before it finally got to the actual adjustment point - it means that the holes made like a "string", before they started to "cluster". Was almost always worse when backing a turret "out" - that is relying on the internal bias spring to push the erector assembly up to the turret screw. Movement did not always occur completely. The kind of thing that a grid test lets you discover about your stuff. There are still some of us old dudes that turn a turret out much too far, then turn it in - so if I want to go "out" 2 clicks - I turn it out 10 clicks and then back in 8 clicks - I want the turret's last motion to be "pushing". I do not know if such is really an issue with a high end or modern scope.
Was vividly illustrated to me that you have to go through shells, to know that you are sighted in. Buddy spent a whole $12 on a box of 20 shells - was expensive - so did not want to "waste" any - fired once at 100 yard target - then crank on turrets. Fire a second time - hole now in wrong place, or even went in wrong direction. And the "circus" just continued - not "wasting" any shots. First shot could have been high and right from the group it would have been in. Second one could have been low and left for its group - and, most of the way through his second box, the shooter still had no clue what is the accuracy capacity of him + rifle + ammo and still was not "sighted in". If that system was delivering 3" or 4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards, virtually impossible to know that you are "sighted in" by firing just a single shot.
Also, nothing magic about the 25 yards - could be most any distance - unless your rifle and ammo and you are capable of placing one bullet after another into virtually same hole at that range, probably better to fire several shots, not just one - to verify what is or is not "tracking".
Likely helps to watch as the group is "built" - especially the older hunting scopes that I grew up with - would continue to move after first shot - insides were not as smooth as modern stuff can be made now - so sometimes had to be fired 2 or 3 times before it finally got to the actual adjustment point - it means that the holes made like a "string", before they started to "cluster". Was almost always worse when backing a turret "out" - that is relying on the internal bias spring to push the erector assembly up to the turret screw. Movement did not always occur completely. The kind of thing that a grid test lets you discover about your stuff. There are still some of us old dudes that turn a turret out much too far, then turn it in - so if I want to go "out" 2 clicks - I turn it out 10 clicks and then back in 8 clicks - I want the turret's last motion to be "pushing". I do not know if such is really an issue with a high end or modern scope.
Was vividly illustrated to me that you have to go through shells, to know that you are sighted in. Buddy spent a whole $12 on a box of 20 shells - was expensive - so did not want to "waste" any - fired once at 100 yard target - then crank on turrets. Fire a second time - hole now in wrong place, or even went in wrong direction. And the "circus" just continued - not "wasting" any shots. First shot could have been high and right from the group it would have been in. Second one could have been low and left for its group - and, most of the way through his second box, the shooter still had no clue what is the accuracy capacity of him + rifle + ammo and still was not "sighted in". If that system was delivering 3" or 4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards, virtually impossible to know that you are "sighted in" by firing just a single shot.
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Hi Shawn - I just wanted to add a couple things that haven't been mentioned, on top o the great advice tendered.
First, about the rifle - I don't have an RAR but I do have an American in .223 that has the 'safety blade' and I followed some tips online about 'fixing' it to reduce trigger-pull - see my Post #5 - http s://www.rugerforum.net/threads/ruger-american-trigger.389620/ . A smoother, lighter trigger will help immensely as I have read that the RAR 'needs help'.
Second, no one has suggested that you get some sort of mechanical rest like a Lead-sled or such. This would eliminate some questions about "You or the rifle or the scope". I use a Primos 'Group Therapy' sled - only about $100 new, but any such sled would help you 'dial-in' when doing the grid as the rifle could be in a stable position while you load the next round. Bags are good but you want to eliminate all extraneous 'wiggle' to be sure where the issue lies.
Third, I just want to agree with the general opinion that you need a better scope. My 'target rifle' is only a Savage B22 (ca $400) and I have a Cabelas Covenant-4 6-24x50 FFP-SF that cost ca $500. Not that you need that scope, but you do need something beyond the Barska. Your shots on those targets show you're doing very well already and like they say - "Aim Small - Hit Small".
You're right with the SK & Eley seeming to shoot better than the others and their price reflects it. I've found that even Federal 40g SV shoots pretty well for my B22 and 'most' HV .22 will widen the groups significantly. Most shooters agree that HV is plinking ammo unless the rifle is 'made for it' like some semis.
End of speech -
Good luck
PS - I also agree Postimage.org is the way to go for 'free' pic storage.
First, about the rifle - I don't have an RAR but I do have an American in .223 that has the 'safety blade' and I followed some tips online about 'fixing' it to reduce trigger-pull - see my Post #5 - http s://www.rugerforum.net/threads/ruger-american-trigger.389620/ . A smoother, lighter trigger will help immensely as I have read that the RAR 'needs help'.
Second, no one has suggested that you get some sort of mechanical rest like a Lead-sled or such. This would eliminate some questions about "You or the rifle or the scope". I use a Primos 'Group Therapy' sled - only about $100 new, but any such sled would help you 'dial-in' when doing the grid as the rifle could be in a stable position while you load the next round. Bags are good but you want to eliminate all extraneous 'wiggle' to be sure where the issue lies.
Third, I just want to agree with the general opinion that you need a better scope. My 'target rifle' is only a Savage B22 (ca $400) and I have a Cabelas Covenant-4 6-24x50 FFP-SF that cost ca $500. Not that you need that scope, but you do need something beyond the Barska. Your shots on those targets show you're doing very well already and like they say - "Aim Small - Hit Small".
You're right with the SK & Eley seeming to shoot better than the others and their price reflects it. I've found that even Federal 40g SV shoots pretty well for my B22 and 'most' HV .22 will widen the groups significantly. Most shooters agree that HV is plinking ammo unless the rifle is 'made for it' like some semis.
End of speech -
Good luck
PS - I also agree Postimage.org is the way to go for 'free' pic storage.
Some last things I thought of - I keep a record of where each shot hit - in sequence - so I know if there was some sort of issue like a 'blink or twitch' that could effect my shots. I take extensive notes as I shoot but sometimes just leave my phone on record audio so I don;t have to stop to write things down. And I run dry patches between 'brands' when testing ammo, just to remove some of the previous lube from the barrel.
Potashminer's scope lesson is right on, and he has history behind his advice.
Buck1950's comments are rounding things out nicely. Pay attention to what the BR guys are using for rests, and why. Some might be using free recoil, others hard holds, and others.... This is an old game and there is no one answer. Learn from others and adapt to yourself.
Buck1950's comments are rounding things out nicely. Pay attention to what the BR guys are using for rests, and why. Some might be using free recoil, others hard holds, and others.... This is an old game and there is no one answer. Learn from others and adapt to yourself.
Wow, Thanks everyone for the information! I will make some notes on it and try it out and report back. I posted those early targets as a baseline and hoping that you coaches will see some improvement. I will put more up when I have them.
Cheers,
Shawn
Cheers,
Shawn
I got some more range time in today. I was able to do 15 5-shot groups.
The bench rest guys were wrapping up and I asked one to shoot my gun, as suggested. He was hesitant. He finally became frank with me and he felt it would not mean anything. He let me try his front rest (nice machined custom one) but it is designed for a flat bottomed stock, etc so mine just wobbled. Him and another shooter discussed options for stabilizing that combination. He did not end up shooting my gun. I tried his set up for a couple of shots but yea, a sporter rifle in a bench rest setup does not work straight up so I went back to my bipod but with my rear bag. I tried to concentrate on stability mostly.
I continued to work through the 5 shot groups. I noticed a lot of little things that could be improved, ie, like my eye relief is not consistent, perhaps my cheek pad is too low (or I need as I am just resting on the bare stock). When I got the rifle, it had the taller one on and I remember exchanging it but now might go back to the taller one (they come with two inserts). I put a mitt on there as a pad and it helped. Probably other things too that I cannot think of right now but another step forward today. I guess this is the sort of stuff I wanted to iron out before I worry too much about getting better equipment. Having said that, I am now looking at a CZ457 MTR...but that will be another discussion.
When I started this thread, I was asking basically what should I expect from this little rifle versus what am I doing to affect the results. I found the rimfirecentral.com group and a search there for my model specifically, the 8301, yielded some good information. Basically, I am a little more wild than some but not as far off as I thought I was. The gun does what it does and is intended to be carried around plinking cans or game. I would expect their (the shooters at rimfirecentral) results to be much better than mine because I assume the members there would be more experienced than me and would have tuned their guns up. I have done nothing in that regard. The group size reported there ranged from just under 0.5" to 2-3" at 50 yards. The discussion was heavily weighed towards different ammos and some of my results had similarities.
Here is the thread that I was looking at but there are several more of course. https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=738145
Today's targets, as usual, consist of 5 targets per page. My goal, per target, is group size right now for consistency as I am bouncing all over the place with brands and types of ammo. One sheet had all results less than a 1" group. Another sheet had 2 groups under an inch. That is a long long way from what I was seeing when I began this little exercise.
The BR shooter today also gave me a few tips and things that they do, ("coaching" potashminer, as you suggested..
)although some tips will not apply to my setup. He also touched on what they see through their x35 or x40 scopes versus what I am seeing through my cheap x9 Barska, the size of their reticle compared to the target, etc. Honestly, with my smaller target images, the reticle in my scope obliterates the center bullseye so it is more of a point and fire than an aim and fire, I think now, having seen the differences.
He also offered to lend me the bench rest gun he started with if I want to try. But I am starting to consider upgrading everything sooner rather than later.
From posts on rimfirecentral, checking of the gun ie screw torques and adjustments, also mentioned previously in this thread are other things I need to do.
So, to sum it up, I feel like I am making some progress with the whole picture, but still only scratched the surface.
Thanks to everyone for participating. I will continue to report back.
Cheers,
Shawn
The bench rest guys were wrapping up and I asked one to shoot my gun, as suggested. He was hesitant. He finally became frank with me and he felt it would not mean anything. He let me try his front rest (nice machined custom one) but it is designed for a flat bottomed stock, etc so mine just wobbled. Him and another shooter discussed options for stabilizing that combination. He did not end up shooting my gun. I tried his set up for a couple of shots but yea, a sporter rifle in a bench rest setup does not work straight up so I went back to my bipod but with my rear bag. I tried to concentrate on stability mostly.
I continued to work through the 5 shot groups. I noticed a lot of little things that could be improved, ie, like my eye relief is not consistent, perhaps my cheek pad is too low (or I need as I am just resting on the bare stock). When I got the rifle, it had the taller one on and I remember exchanging it but now might go back to the taller one (they come with two inserts). I put a mitt on there as a pad and it helped. Probably other things too that I cannot think of right now but another step forward today. I guess this is the sort of stuff I wanted to iron out before I worry too much about getting better equipment. Having said that, I am now looking at a CZ457 MTR...but that will be another discussion.
When I started this thread, I was asking basically what should I expect from this little rifle versus what am I doing to affect the results. I found the rimfirecentral.com group and a search there for my model specifically, the 8301, yielded some good information. Basically, I am a little more wild than some but not as far off as I thought I was. The gun does what it does and is intended to be carried around plinking cans or game. I would expect their (the shooters at rimfirecentral) results to be much better than mine because I assume the members there would be more experienced than me and would have tuned their guns up. I have done nothing in that regard. The group size reported there ranged from just under 0.5" to 2-3" at 50 yards. The discussion was heavily weighed towards different ammos and some of my results had similarities.
Here is the thread that I was looking at but there are several more of course. https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=738145
Today's targets, as usual, consist of 5 targets per page. My goal, per target, is group size right now for consistency as I am bouncing all over the place with brands and types of ammo. One sheet had all results less than a 1" group. Another sheet had 2 groups under an inch. That is a long long way from what I was seeing when I began this little exercise.
The BR shooter today also gave me a few tips and things that they do, ("coaching" potashminer, as you suggested..
)although some tips will not apply to my setup. He also touched on what they see through their x35 or x40 scopes versus what I am seeing through my cheap x9 Barska, the size of their reticle compared to the target, etc. Honestly, with my smaller target images, the reticle in my scope obliterates the center bullseye so it is more of a point and fire than an aim and fire, I think now, having seen the differences. He also offered to lend me the bench rest gun he started with if I want to try. But I am starting to consider upgrading everything sooner rather than later.
From posts on rimfirecentral, checking of the gun ie screw torques and adjustments, also mentioned previously in this thread are other things I need to do.
So, to sum it up, I feel like I am making some progress with the whole picture, but still only scratched the surface.
Thanks to everyone for participating. I will continue to report back.
Cheers,
Shawn
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- Location
- Western Manitoba
....
The BR shooter today also gave me a few tips and things that they do, ("coaching" potashminer, as you suggested..
....
Shawn
Something that I discovered, or perhaps "confirmed" for myself. Really important to have a repeatable aiming picture - same after same. Oddly, having your bullets strike on your aiming point, can change that, shot to shot. It looks different. Almost need like a BR-25 or BR-50 target - one shot at each bull, if you want to repeatedly hit dead centre?
So, for a cross hair type reticle, I started to use a square - say 2" (5 cm) white in middle with a 1/2" (12.5 mm) or 3/4"(19 mm) border. Is a function of your eyesight, I guess - pretty certain in the "old days" they were 1 1/2" white with the border - these days is more likely to be 3". Idea is that when you place a conventional cross hair on that white square, the cross hair divides that white square into 4 smaller squares. I found it uncanny how your eye picks up when the squares are not equal - if you drifted high or low / if you drifted to the side - you see that the four squares are not identical. Try to touch off the shots when the four squares look the same. In effect, you are aiming at "nothing" - just into that white, but you will be able to place your cross hairs back to the exact same spot each time.
I used to hunt with a K3 scope with a 3 MOA dot in centre of crosshairs. For "sighting in", my target that worked best for me was a 4" white circle with a thick black rim - I would see a "rim of white" around that dot - I found that to be very repeatable. I also tried 4" white squares with a black rim - was not too bad to be able to centre that black round dot, into that black bordered square. I shot many sub-1" 3 and 5 shot groups at 100 yards with that scope and targets - the rifle was chambered in 243 Win.
Since I am usually sighting in a rifle for hunting, I have a fainter 1" diameter circle on the target about 3" higher than the centre of that white. It is my intention to get my hunting loads striking that smaller circle, even though I am aiming at the centre of the square.
You might want to try that, instead of "obliterating" (covering) what you are aiming at. Hard to hit what you can not see - so if you hide it behind the crosshair, gets worse??
Is a little bit like shooting with a front aperture at a round black bull - is actually the "rim of white" that helps you to know that you are perfectly centered on that bull. Your eye picks up pretty easily when that "rim" is not the same all the way around.
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