Experience with Berger 185 Hybrids

Tomochan

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I've been a fan of the the Berger 185 BT's out of my various .308's and was impressed by the accuracy of that particular bullet. Recently however due to an unforeseen 'miscommunication' between myself and a supplier I ended up having to work up a load for the 185 Berger Hybrids. Initially I thought this bullet change wouldn't be a problem as, while Berger recommends a 1:11 twist or faster, I own suitably-barrelled rifles but what a frustrating journey this load development proved to be.

Now, on paper, this Hybrid is an impressive bullet with a BC higher even that the BT's but for me it proved to be a very finicky bullet to perfect a load for. Of course, I used quality rifles - a PGW Coyote with Krieger 1:10 and a Defiance with Rock Creek 1:10 - of proven (sub .5 MOA) accuracy but no matter what the load I fed them the best I could achieve at 200m ( my preferred load testing distance as 100m gives too many false positives and 300m leaves too much room for shooter error ) was barely MOA. In sum both rifles shot no better than a decent hunting rifle and I was getting pretty frustrated especially as I had over a 1000 bullets that I thought were now only of use as pretty fishing weights !

Berger claims that, unlike their VLD bullets, the Hybrids are not sensitive to jump but since no reasonable powder charge was working I played around with seating depth but still no joy and in any case in both test rifles I was still limited by mag length. Clearly it was time for a new approach and so I decided to run some of the Hybrids through my custom F/TR rifle - now this is a rifle that should not have shot these particular bullets well as it uses a Krieger 30" tube that is a 1:12 twist but at a COAL of 2.942 and a Varget powder charge of 41.5 and at 43.2 ( Norma brass and FGMM primers ) these bullets produced excellent groups. In fact at every .5 incremental weight between 41.5 and 43.2 the groups were acceptable with the worst recorded 5 shot group still measuring a respectable 0.688 MOA but it was at 43.2 that the best group was produced of 0.568" which if my math is right is shooting in the .2"s MOA.

What I learned from this exercise was that these bullets are sensitive to 'jump' and that neither powder charge nor ROT isn't so important as bullet seating for these particular bullets.

Hope this may help with others who are getting spotty results with these relatively new bullets.

Best Result:

Langley-20120811-00152.jpg
 
Have you tried going back to the original test rifles to see if you can get them to shoot, knowing what you know now?
 
Well done and nice shooting.

So far, feedback to me has been easy to tune and set up.

BUT all of these long HIGH BC bullets are not plug and play. They all need tuning and mucking with to find the best load.

They do shoot well when that combo is found and I am glad you have a working load. Now some 600m testing to confirm the vertical (odds are some tweaking needed here) and have at it.

Twist rates listed by bullet manf will always be conservative. Better to overstabilize then have someone make retangular holes. however, that is not always the path to best accuracy.

The only way to really know is to send them downrange and look at the holes in paper.

Jerry
 
if they work in the ftr and not in the others it is clearly the fact that the mag limits optimal seating depth. the fact it shoots well in your 12 twist means it is not twist rate that is an issue. lots of shooters use these in 12 twists. i would try getting a load to feed single shot to see if it will work in your mag guns and see if the seating depth is the problem
 
Paperslayer who are correct - the cartridges are too long for mag feeding and since these rifles are used for matches that require mag feeding I will stick to tried and true loads for them. For the F/TR rifle the 185's show great potential so it is in that rifle that they will be used.

Longshot - COAL as given is kissing the lands.
 
Hmm interesting. I need to try my 105s touching to see if it makes a difference. I'm waiting for a tap to arrive so I can make a modified case for the hornady oal gauge
Honestly I think the 185 bts are pretty awesome bullets and they fit in the mag to boot.
 
I'd say you need to work on your tune a little bit. I am too used to seeing one hole groups at 300 meters. :D
 
Hmm interesting. I need to try my 105s touching to see if it makes a difference. I'm waiting for a tap to arrive so I can make a modified case for the hornady oal gauge
Honestly I think the 185 bts are pretty awesome bullets and they fit in the mag to boot.

185 BT's are, indeed, awesome but I was out of them and took 185 Hybrids as an alternative. I think for a while at least the way I will go are 185 BT's or 175g SMK's for the mag-fed and 185 Hybrids for the F/TR single-shots.

I shall leave one-hole at 300m groups for other, obviously more skilled, shooters to report upon :)
 
I shall leave one-hole at 300m groups for other, obviously more skilled, shooters to report upon :)

Glad you got my lame attempt at some satirical humor. Nice shooting BTW. I just got some 6mm 105gr Hybrids that I will be trying in 6x47 Lapua.
 
Whats your recipe Troy?Tell us a bit about your rifle too.

Seriously just poking a little fun, Longshot.

Since my wife and I started a family three years ago I have had little time to do any serious shooting. Which of my rifles do you want to know about? I have a 55 pound 1000 yard heavy gun done by Dave Tooley built with a 10" BAT in a McMilllan HBR in .30 BooBoo and 7mm BooBoo. A 1000 yard light gun done by Leonard Baity and Bill Shehane built on a BAT 8.5" action in a Shehane Tracker in 6.5/.284 Shehane. A .22lr Silhouette gun built by Mark Pharr which is built on a ANshutz 54 with a threaded benchmark barrel in a Pharr RTS stock with Pearson metal all around. A High Power Hunter Silhouette rifle with a Pearson 5022 two stage trigger conversion on a Rem 700 with a Gaillard barrel in a Pharr RTS stock and Pearson rings and bases. A High Power Standard Rifle with a Rem 700 action in a Pharr Standard stock with Pearson rings and bases. A .17 Predator on a Stiller Tac 30 in a Manners T2 stock, lilja barrel with AICS DBM. My 7STW in a Rem 700 long action with a Joel Russo A5L and Krieger barrrel. My 6x47 Lapua in a Manners T4 with AICS DBM with a Bartlein barrel on a Stiller Tac 30. I have Premiere boosted Leupolds on my silhouette rigs and I use Nightforce BR or NXS scopes on everything else. I also have a build I have been piecing together. It is likely going to be a .284 Shehane on a Borden Rimrock LSR in a McMillan A5 desert camo with a Krieger barrel and AICS DBM. I am just waiting on the action.
 
My experience is the same, but finally I've got a .35MOA@100m
SAKO TRG-22
lapua palma, trimmed to 2.005"
CCI-BR4
RL-17 47.8gr
Neck Tension = 0.003" (bushing 0.332), neck turned to 0.0137"
OAL - 2.940" (mag length)
V0 = 792ms @ 16C


Prone, harris bipod:
100m
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiodskq0nnvshng/185Berger-hybrid-004-1.jpg
1cm cell size

200m
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h05qghfj06ri8cd/185Berger-hybrid-005.jpg
1" the target size

Tested it on Vokes range on Sep1,2 at 400,600m
Vertical dope was fine (used kestrel with horus with custom Dist-BC table)
400m - E2.6Mils @ +16C; 983hPa; 40%
600m - E4.9mils @ +25C; 983hPa; 40%

The Wind was interested :)


With regards,
Viktor.
 
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Any idea what speeds they were running at? i just got a box of the 175 otm tactical which is basically a 175Bt. Apparently they work off any other 175 load but with a little higher BC. Im going to try driving them to 2800fps or as high as I can safely go and see what happens. I can get a little better than 1/2 moa at 200m with MKs so these and the 185bt are really interesting. The Chou bros are sending the 185Bt at over 2800fps.Kills the brass but it sure shoots nice. Be interesting to see how Norma brass holds up.
 
WARM loads

My experience is the same, but finally I've got a .35MOA@100m
SAKO TRG-22
lapua palma, trimmed to 2.005"
CCI-BR4
RL-17 47.8gr
Neck Tension = 0.003" (bushing 0.332), neck turned to 0.0137"
OAL - 2.940" (mag length)
V0 = 792ms @ 16C

This is a stiff load. Lapua Palma primer pockets stretching? How many reloads will they take with this charge?
 
My findings is that those heavy, long ogives really shines with R-17 in the 308 with twist 11.25 or less... JP.
 
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