Experimental Ross Rifle

Developing the breech mechanism was the focus. The magazine was there, along with the other salvaged parts, so it was used.
No doubt if the mechanism has promise, the design of the entire rifle would have been refined. A Ross type magazine may or may not have been retained. If the rifle was made in the '20s, which is what Smellie and I suspect, there was no general recognition of what an auto rifle should be like. Think about magazine evolution for light and heavy machineguns. There were all sorts of mousetraps before box magazines and belts became the accepted standards.
 
I have mixed feelings on this thing.

But mostly, I think its a shame that someone cut up a nice H. G. MK III.

I would think an unmolested Home Guard would be worth a lot more than what we have here.

Does the barrel have a serial # on it?
Does it still have the tighter .460 chamber?

If it does I wish I had it. It would go a long way towards restoring a H.G that I have that bubba decided should have a shorter barrel.
 
Well, I have an unmolested HG rifle in excellent plus condition; might even be unused given the lack of a primer ring on the boltface and absence of brass streaks in the magazine. What is a HG in this condition worth these days?
A prototype firearm like this one is a heck of a lot more unusual.
Value and desireability are in the eyes of the beholder. Might or might not be worth more than a fine HG. I've seen photos of a private collection which includes a number of experimental and prototype auto rifles. Very exotic, very rare items.
This isn't a Ross rifle, unless it was made up by or for Sir Charles. If it was, it would be of significant value to an advanced Ross collector. Are you there, Rossguy? Breaking it to get a barrel wouldn't make sense; the rifle has value quite apart from the value of any Rossbits it contains.
 
From The Ross Rifle Story, page 411:

A phenomenon observed on large guns when first made as breech loaders, was that of self-opening. This was disastrous as many people were injured. In the United States, the phenomenon was incorporated into what was known as the Blish system and was pursued by General John T. Thompson. The principle was based on drop in pressure occurring when the projectile had advanced well up the barrel. At this point the interrupted screw thread would turn, unlocking the breech.

The self-opening phenomenon exploited by Blish was investigated during the development of General Thompson's submachine gun ans was incorporated in the Model P. The firearm, an autorifle, was developed by Oscar V. Payne and Theodore H. Eickhoff, in Cleveland, Ohio and was tested in 1920 at the Springfield Armoury, where it set a record for reliability for such rifles in the 5,000 round test.

An interesting feature about all this was that when Thompson began experimenting with the Blish principle (starting with US Patent 1,340,943, filed November 26 1917) he found it would not work with high velocity rifles. This problem however, was overcome when Payne and Eickhoff modified a 1910 action Ross rifle to attain a true and successful Blish application. Reference to this is found in US Patent number 1,247,576, wherein rotation is accompanied and facilitated by a drop in pressure.
 
Fascinating...sounds like you found it.

I couldn't view the patents, but I don't think this particular rifle is the one referred to in bold because they speak there about "rotation" which suggests to me they used a stock Ross bolt and breech. Also I don't see any kind of bolt head that could rotate in the photos above, so this one is a little later in the process of experimentation, I'm guessing.
 
"Wherein rotation is accompanied and facilitated by a drop in pressure".
The rifle pictured has a sliding locking block; no rotation is involved. Blish sytem, but probably not the same rifle described. There were rotating bolt Blish system rifles. The US NPS Springfield Armory website illustrates some.
I would suspect earlier than the rotating system, because the Thompson smg design used the sliding H piece lock.
Given that the rifle has a purpose built receiver, trigger group, bolt assembly and locking system, I do not think it can be categorized as a converted Mk. III Ross rifle.
 
As RRCo. and tiriaq have already said.

Any reference I have seen that applies the Ross to the Blish system involves the Ross action. The interrupted screw bolt being the crucial part.

The Blish system did not work properly with high powered cartridges until the Ross interrupted thread was applied to it.

Unless someone can come up with documentation or pics etc. tying this to Ross, Thompson, Savage etc. it is just a interesting experiment or project by who knows who.

Also, any of the experiments I have seen by these guys, at least had a pistol grip so you fire the darn thing with some degree of comfort.
 
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This critter is a testbed for the ACTION.

It uses the vertical sliding wedge, as the original Trench Broom and the 1921/28 guns.

Bolt rotation was a feature of the Trials THOMPSON AUTORIFLE, the one that stuck .30-'06 empties into the door 30 yards away.

My take on this: somebody had a Ross, or bought a Ross (makes sense: superb barrels) and cannibalised it to make up this critter. Person who did this either did it in the very early 1920s OR about 20 years later, thinking they had a better slant on the vertical-wedge operation. If it was done in the early 1920s, then I would think Thompson and his buddies had their hands in it all the way to their elbows. If it is from 1940/41, the I would bet on a toolroom machinist who followed the original experiments and figured he had a better slant on the original idea. We KNOW that the rotating-bolt Thompson AUTORIFLE was a bust.

I don't think Sir Charles, or the Ross Factory, were anything to this tale apart from victims.

Where did it come from? Who made it? Seems to be covered by the vertical Blish-lock principles, so likely no patents issued unless for the adjustable Blish-lock spring/housing. Would be really interesting to know if there were any Tommy parts used in this, or modded for this, even that spring.

Is this a Savage product? A toolroom product? A SAVAGE TOOLROOM project perhaps. Savage did have a contract to make one awful LOAD of 1928/1928A1 Tommies.

WISH this baby came with some paperwork.

US Patent Office, anyone?
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Patents

In a previous post on GunNutz, by RRCo, it was mentioned in “The Ross Rifle Story” that a rifle was designed and issued patent 1347576. The OP gave 1247576 as the Patent number, probably a typing error. However, it is possible that the Ross Rifle Story is in error. (Yes, I can feel the Mob gathering at SMELLIE’s house, holding the Tar and Feathers, for my suggesting such an outrageous thing.) In my Defence, I would like to point out that United States Patent 1347576 was issued to H.S Cornish for a Liquid Mixing and Delivery Apparatus and Patent 1247576 for a Cigar Vending Machine.

Patent 1340943 was a patent assigned to T.H. Eickhoff and O.V. Payne. It was filed with the U.S. Patent office on November 26, 1917 and assigned a Patent on May 25, 1920. It is based on the Blish locking system of an inclined plane, with ramps and slots internally on both sides of the receiver.

In an article on the development of the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, by Theodore Eickhoff, he met General John Thompson when Thompson became Chief of Ordinance on 1908 and Eickhoff was hired as Engineer the same year. Thompson was interested in developing a semi-automatic rifle and needed a draftsman to study military rifles in the U.S. and other nations.

At the beginning of WW1, Thompson took a Consulting Position with Remington Arms, who were producing Pattern 14 Enfield rifles. Eickhoff at this time went to Civilian employment. In summer 1916, Thompson telegraphed Eichhoff asking for a meeting at Thompson’s home in Media, Pennsylvania. Thompson gave his Ambitions on providing a semi-automatic rifle for the U.S. Military, and his search of Patents, with emphasis on the Blish principle. He was confident that a breech action could be made, and hired Eickhoff to investigate design and build an automatic rifle. Preliminary work was undertaken using Blish Patent 1131319, dated March 19, 1915 as a basis of a design for an automatic shoulder rifle.

Thompson agreed to Eichoff’s suggestion to design and make a trial mechanism to try out the principle and study the action and determine it’s feasibility. This action was manufactured by the Warner and Swasey Company of Cleveland, Ohio. Thompson was personally acquainted with Warner, Swasey and F.C. Scott, and to quote Eickhoff, “The Colonel had very great confidence in the Company to produce only the highest quality of workmanship, and he wanted the mechanism to be of highest quality.”

The mechanism gave promise of functioning, but seemed to require changes or improvements after testing. This model used the standard 30-06 Service cartridge, and after a long series of tests, it was found that the cartridges needed a slight lubrication for the rifle to function efficiently.

Thompson was recalled to the Army as a Brigadier General when the U.S. entered the War in 1917. In the same year, Oscar V. Payne applied for a position with the company and was hired. This Group found that the rifle mechanism could operate reliably with waxed cartridges in rifle calibres.

The Cleveland Company became convinced that a rifle calibre cartridge would not function without lubrication, but that the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge would. Work on the rifle design was suspended, and the design of the Thompson Sub-Machine gun began. O.V. Payne was to design the gun, and tests were carried out to determine the angle for the Blish lock to function best. The first design used a web belt, but testing showed it to jam readily. The web belt feed was dropped, and the gun designed for 20 round box magazines, and 50 and 100 round drum magazines. WW1 ended before the gun could begin to be in production. Work on the rifle then resumed.

Thompson did not like the idea of waxed ammunition, but suggested lubricating oil pads inside the magazine. The design Group rejected this idea for obvious reasons, so began to design another rifle. Because of the higher pressures, they rejected the wedge and initiated the rotating screw type of locking mechanism. They designed and built a shoulder rifle using the rotating screw type locking lugs, but it still needed ammunition that was lightly lubricated to function properly.

In the Fall of 1920, the Cleveland shop was closed down, most of the employees dismissed, and a few employees were moved to Hartford, Connecticut where they acted as Consultants to the Colt’s Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company, who were to produce the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun in quantity for the Auto Ordinance Corporation. Shortly after the move, O.V. Payne left the company, and T.H. Eickoff left in 1924.

To quote Eickoff, “After leaving the Auto Ordinance Corporation, I was in occasional correspondence with the Company regarding the design of an autorifle for the British cartridge.”

Unfortunately, the Patent drawings would not download from the site using Google. However, the patent does not feature a vertical sliding wedge but refers to a screw type mechanism for locking.


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Thanks for the research, buffdog!
"design of an auto rifle for the British cartridge".....
This rifle may well be the prototype the company was working on.
 
Tar & feather anyway!

Seriously, this is one of my favourite 'milsurp' threads yet...

You obviously have committed a serious error with your comment. I am one of the tar-and-featherers. On the other hand, you have made the list, very close to the top, as a tar-and-featheree.:)

It is very interesting on just what you see and find on a lot of these threads. One thing leads to another, and lots of times someone will come up with the information that can identify or clarify the firearms in question.

The Internet is a fine source of information, but must be taken at face value, as a lot of things posted are just plain rubbish or misinformation.

Most of us try to honestly share information, experiences and information with fellow members.:welcome:
 
"http://ip.com/patent/US1340943

I can view the pictures.

Perhaps the brass hinged thing behind the bolt carrier is a Blish lock.
IMG_0008.jpg
 
You obviously have committed a serious error with your comment. I am one of the tar-and-featherers. On the other hand, you have made the list, very close to the top, as a tar-and-featheree.:)

Top of the list? I haven't even showed pics of my "black" Ross yet...

I have enjoyed the Gurus all working together to find where this one fits in.
 
This came from the Utica, NY plant.

Savage, as all other firearms companies, were working on new products between WWI and WWII.

Springfield Armory (the US government one) was developing a rife in parallel with the Garand.

It was test fired at Quabin Reservoir shooting across the water to get long range targets.


It was sold off to get Savage out of bankruptcy in the 1980’s.
 
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